Cheng² Duo: Transcript
Episode Podcast, Video, Show notes
Silvie Cheng:
Reminded me, I felt a very strong connection to our late maternal grandmother while recording that video and that piece. And she actually never got to meet Bryan. And so somehow I think there was this powerful moment where I felt like she was meeting Bryan through us playing this music of our ancestors.
Bryan Cheng:
Now I'm the first cellist to have had two consecutive loans of this instrument. So I have the even greater privilege of getting to know this instrument even more deeply. And it's, I think every step of the way we're, I say we're both learning from each other because I do feel that I have an influence on the instrument. It's still, although it's over 300 years old, it still has a malleable sound and personality.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, you're listening to Conversations with Musicians with Leah Roseman. This podcast strives to inspire you through the personal stories of a diversity of musicians worldwide with in-depth conversations and great music that reveal the depth and breadth to a life in music. This week's episode is with the brilliant cello piano ensemble Cheng² Duo with siblings Bryan and Sylvie Cheng. They have performed to great acclaim worldwide and have released to date four fantastic albums. The most recent, Portrait, which was nominated for a JUNO Award. Portrait, features music by composers from diverse Asian heritages. And in this podcast, Bryan and Sylvie reflect on some important personal experiences related to this. We are featuring some of the music from Portrait and some of their other projects in this episode with their insights on championing living composers such as Paul Wiancko and Dinuk Wijeratne and reaching new audiences. I asked them about their Carnegie Hall debut when Bryan had just started high school and some of their individual experiences with concert preparation, touring and finding a life balance. Some of what you'll hear about are Bryan's reflections on his memorable childhood lessons with Yuli Turovski, the incredible opportunity he's had to play the Bonjour Strad and his experiences with international competitions. Sylvie shared her reflections on her mentors and her life as a performer and educator in New York. Bryan and Sylvie grew up in Ottawa, Canada where I live, and it's wonderful to see their careers expanding both individually and as a world renowned chamber ensemble. Bryan spoke to us from his home in Berlin and Sylvie from her home in New York.
Before we dive into the episode, I wanted to remind you that this podcast is in Season Four and that I send out a weekly email newsletter where you can get access to Sneak Peeks of upcoming guests. Have a look at the description of this episode where you'll find all the links, including the support link. Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast, and I've also linked the transcript to my website, leahroseman.com. Hey, thanks so much for joining me here today.
Silvie Cheng:
Hi. Thank you for having us.
Leah Roseman:
The magic of technology because Sylvia, you're at your home in New York, and Bryan, you're at your home in Berlin, and here I am in Ottawa where you guys both grew up. So just those little,
Silvie Cheng:
Our three homes.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah!
Bryan Cheng:
Yes, all connected.
Leah Roseman:
So I thought we'd start with your most recent album Portrait, which was nominated for a Juno Award. And for those listeners who are not Canadian, it's like the Canadian Grammys. It's our prestigious music awards. So well-deserved, it's an incredible album.
Silvie Cheng:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
Now, you had relationships with what a lot of these commissions were from before, so you pulled on repertoire you had. And I understand at the beginning of the pandemic, Bryan, you kind of got stranded in New York and this sort of led to this album. Do you want to speak to that?
Bryan Cheng:
Yeah, I would say it was very many steps in between that that led to the forming of the idea of an album like this. But what happened was I was traveling in the US for some concerts in March, 2020, and one of the last concerts before everything the whole world shut down was a recital in New York with Sylvie where she's based. And so I had anyways, decided to stay a few days afterwards in New York as I was on the way to LA for a cello festival. And then immediately I think the next day or a couple days after we received all these cancellation news of series and presenters putting things on hold. And at that point we thought it would just be a couple of weeks. And so I decided, oh, I'll just stay in New York until the storm blows over and we'll just have a nice time together with Sylvie and her partner who also lives in New York.
And then it turned into three months that I was staying in New York. And during that time, we had so much time to ponder and to reflect on not only what it means to be a musician in those very difficult times for the whole world, but also what we were seeking and what we were missing out on as artists living in the classical world, which reflects the 21st century society. And one of the things that, the common things that came up during our discussions was the fact that music from our heritage, Chinese or various diverse Asian heritage was not very much represented, if at all on the concert stage. And neither of us could remember when the last time that we had heard a piece by an Asian composer being performed other than in let's say in a lunar New Year celebration, for example. And that led to the idea of one unifying project, which championed voices from this background.
And it had so happened that, as you said, we've commissioned composers over the past decade, and many of them have been of diverse Asian heritage, not necessarily by choice, but just because Canada itself is such a diverse country and we have so many incredible talented voices and composers and in the artist realm, and we've always just been spurred by excellence and in the pursuit of excellence and finding partners of the highest quality. And so we have this base of commissions from various composers of various heritages, which we wanted to share with the world on record as a permanent record. And that is how the album came about.
Leah Roseman:
They're not all Canadian. Isn't Paul Wiancko American?
Bryan Cheng:
That's right. Yeah. I guess I meant North AmericanSince North America doesn't really have an identity of its own in the way that Europe or Asia with its much longer history. Like I said, the society, which is reflected today, is very much a modern society compared to Germany where I'm living and China where our parents are from. There's thousands of years of culture and folk tradition. So that's also another aspect that we wanted to share with these folk songs, Chinese folk songs, which are very, very well known in China, but not at all appreciated or heard by the Western society. So we have sort of the old of the folk and the new of these modern living composers, which we very much enjoy working with, and that the album presents a balance in that sense.
Leah Roseman:
The erhu is definitely one of the grandfathers, of the cello. And you really evoke that beautiful vocal quality. Have you ever played an erhu?
Bryan Cheng:
I've dabbled a little bit just for fun in China as well. When we've visited relatives, we've gone to see some traditional folk instrument concerts, and I've tried some at local music shops and it's been very, very fascinating. It's a whole different technique, of course, because there's no fingerboard and therefore it creates this very flexible sound with lots of glissando and ornament. So it's a completely different way of playing, and I have so much respect for all of these folk in instrumentalists who just seem to evoke this mystic world from these tiny instruments. I mean, if you look at the sound box of who, it's probably like palm sized and in comparison to the cello, which is massive, and that also influences the way that I approached these works being transcriptions of folk instruments. It's a completely different sound world that one has to immerse themselves into.
Leah Roseman:
One of my very first interviews on the series was with the erhu player Patty Chan, who's based in Toronto.
Bryan Cheng:
Oh, she's a dear friend of ours
Silvie Cheng:
Oh, we've worked with her
Leah Roseman:
And I'm so fascinated as a violinist with all the different bodes string instruments. So anyway, and I was thinking we could include, because you guys did some arrangements, like the Y moon's reflection upon a spring. That's something That's right. Yeah. So could we include that as part of this episode?
Silvie Cheng:
Of course. Yeah, definitely. Thank
Leah Roseman:
You. You guys made some videos, I think you filmed at the beautiful Isabelle Bader Center in Kingston for some of the tracks, and you have beautiful fashion choices for each one, I noticed. Do you guys shop together or get commissioned outfits for concerts?
Silvie Cheng:
Well, for that particular track, actually, I wore a qipao, a traditional dress that was my mom's, so that was partly a nod to just our heritage as well. And that piece, I remember for some reason, actually, this is a pretty personal story, but I'm just thinking of it, that reminded me, I felt a very strong connection to our late maternal grandmother while recording that video and that piece. And she actually never got to meet Bryan. And so somehow I think there was this powerful moment where I felt like she was meeting Bryan through us playing this music of our ancestors. And he jokingly kind of turned around and he was like, are you crying? And I was like, it's not you, it's grandma. He thought that I had made him cry, which it was really his sound. But there was this moment, so you can imagine somehow it also felt particularly magical because we were in the empty Isabelle Bader Center and it was during a pandemic, and so there was something just very powerful and mystical about that experience.
But I'll never not associate now, I actually hadn't worn that dress before and I've now since worn it for some recitals. But every time I step into that dress, I think about not only my grandmother and our family, but also that special recording moment.
Leah Roseman:
Wow.
Silvie Cheng:
So in some ways, yeah, we definitely choose our clothing with the repertoire, I would say the programming in mind. So especially for these music videos, we didn't want - we wanted the visual aspect to have some kind of connection with the music. We thought, especially for our generation, I think whenever, let's say a pop musician or anything releases a music video, like the visual part, I would say almost overtakes the actual song. Everyone knows the song and know the lyrics, but what they're trying to see is the background dancers or the outfits or whatever the narrative visual story is. And so we didn't want to necessarily have it overtake the music in our case, but we did that perhaps the idea, for example, in Moon's Reflection, the fact that we could maybe create with lighting a feeling, an atmospheric feeling of being next to a body of water a spring, and having the moon reflect on that.
It was kind of just a transformative, a transportive way of being able to communicate this music as well. So something we think about, but generally we're not. It's just what's in our closet and matches.
Leah Roseman:
You're about to hear Hua Yanjun Moon's Reflection upon a Spring Er Quan Ying Yue, arranged by the Cheng2 Duo . (music)
I was remembering the beginning of the pandemic, there was a lot of anti-Asian harassment and even violence. Did you guys experience that or observe that at all?
Silvie Cheng:
Unfortunately, in New York, I would say we did, or at least definitely at - Bryan, d,id you I don't maybe as much, you witnessed?
Bryan Cheng:
Yeah, I've witnessed, and I've heard you speaking about stories. Yeah.
Silvie Cheng:
There was one particular moment. I was actually on my way to a concert. This was I think 21 or 2022. So we were out of the lockdown era, but people were still very nervous. And of course, there's people anywhere in the world who struggle with mental illness, but especially I think in New York, it was difficult. I remember I was on my way to a concert and I had walked into a subway car where you could kind of see a thrown spray bottles of different cleaning supplies, and there was a man in the corner. And so generally there were other people on the subway. So that's one thing that I always say that I feel safe in New York is that there's witnesses. No matter where you go, you're never kind of alone with someone who's struggling. And so everyone was letting him just be in his own corner in the car.
But then at some point, I guess he saw me and I was the only Asian person on this subway car just happened to be. And he came over and he was wearing a garbage bag. So you could tell it was someone who was maybe frightened still by the idea of the virus, but didn't know how to deal with it. And he'd came over with spray bottles in his hand, and he was yelling at me and telling me to go back to where I came from, and basically looked like he wanted to clean, purge himself, of me. So I felt it was a direct attack. At the same time, these kind strangers stood up and sort of told him to either leave me alone or to get off at the next stop, but to make things easier, actually, I just got off at the next stop and then I walked to the concert.
So things like that, actually those experiences did spur us in terms of even creating this project because it was the idea of, I mean, to us, because we always think of music and we always learn of music as a universal language, and wherever we go in the world, we manage to connect deeply with our audiences regardless of their racial or demographic or any kind of background, even age. And so I think we were trying to figure out a way that the more that we share this music, the more that society becomes inclusive and the more we realize that at the base of it, we're all just humans. We're all born by a mother, and we all kind of die alone. These are things that just unite us and throughout the journey. Otherwise, ideally we don't feel as alone. I think certainly making music together as siblings, we get to feel that on a daily basis, but then being able to share our music with others, that was kind of one of the impetus, I would say, for this project. But yeah,
Bryan Cheng:
Unfortunately, also, one of the things that I think I mentioned, we were pondering the purpose of why we're doing what we do during these times when we needed nurses and doctors and essential workers. And the one thing that I do think we contribute as musicians, all musicians, is the search for beauty and the appreciation of beauty in daily life. And that's our way of fighting against hate and ignorance and all this negativity, which is so rampant in the world with all these wars and things that divide us so much. But when you sit down and you listen to a piece like Moon's Reflection Upon a Spring or any work played with this sense of calming search for something perhaps is greater us than one person, than human race, then it puts a different perspective on things. And I think that is our ultimate goal, is to spread the contagion of beauty rather than
Silvie Cheng:
A happy virus.
Leah Roseman:
Well, it's a big part of why I put so much into this series is just to try to make a difference in the world. Yeah. I mentioned Paul Wiancko. I didn't know he was a composer. He's the new cellist for Kronos Quartet. And that Sonata is really interesting. I thought it might be interesting even just to include a clip of that first movement because it's so different, the texture, and in terms of the ensemble challenge, it's kind of unique where you're just pizz in unison with Sylvie's left hand.
Bryan Cheng:
Yeah. Paul is a multi talent. We first got to know him as
Silvie Cheng:
As a composer, I would say,
Bryan Cheng:
Well, we first got introduced to his name, I would say. But personally, I think we first got to know him as a musician. I mean, we were just, him and I, we were sight reading in a barn you
Silvie Cheng:
Were goofing around
Bryan Cheng:
In New Hampshire many, many years ago. And that I think that playfulness and that curiosity is very much at the heart
Silvie Cheng:
Well, was it Piatti duets?
Bryan Cheng:
Duets? No, it was Glière
Silvie Cheng:
It was Glière. Okay. Yeah. So it was something with structure and written out notes, but the two of them were playing it as if it was improvised,
Bryan Cheng:
Improvised. And that's one of the things that we love about his music. It just feels so natural and off the cuff somehow as if everything that he's writing is spur of the moment. And in that opening section of his sonata, it's very much, it's like no two intervals are the same, and you can tell it comes from a place of just pure experimentation and joy of being a master of the instrument and his art, and just seeing what the possibilities are at the most basic level. He talks about the Sonata as him trying to dilute his musical language into its most fundamental elements, which is what he feels Beethoven does as well. And that he was inspired by Beethoven's fourth cello sonata to write his sonata, which also happens to be in C Major for a little bit at least. And so it's his homage to another musical giant, I think. We think he's one of the musical giants of our time. And that's definitely, honestly the criteria for us when we work with living composers is anyone who we just feel has something extraordinary to say with their compositional voice. But do you have something you want to add?
Silvie Cheng:
And specifically in that opening section, he says that's one of his favorite textures is he's called it the rub. The rub between the cleanness of the piano and the cleanness of its intonation, rubbing against the expressive intonation of a cello, and especially the way that the overtones sort of mix together. And it's really interesting to hear it live too actually, because it sounds like a third instrument is being created, if that makes any sense. But what's fun to play about that opening section is you would think looking at it that you'd be so worried about being perfectly together, if that makes sense. But because I think we're just thinking about this textural rub, it's actually very fun in a sense. It's like doing a trust fall with each other that never ends. It's like a two page trust fall where as long as we just breathe together and then we just kind of go, but we're not thinking, you don't actually have time to think about being together.
It's not even about ensemble at all. You're just creating that texture. So I do having bigger picture sort of ideas to latch onto when playing new music. I think that's actually something that I miss and wish that we could have with older music, because I think probably the greats like Mozart, Beethoven, and Grieg and Chopin, they probably actually had a bigger picture in mind. But these days with the scores that we face, we're so caught up in the nitpicky details. But I think if they said one big picture thing, we'd be like, ah. And then we'd be freed of all these. Yeah, these worries.
Leah Roseman:
This next musical selection is an excerpt from Paul Wiancko's Sonata number one for cello and piano Shifting Basslines, part one. (music)
Yeah, I was just thinking about context too, because hearing you both speak about this work is like, I'll go back and hear it differently. So when you present concerts live, are you fans? I know, and we'll get maybe into some of your multimedia projects you've done, but the way concerts are presented, and especially in terms of bringing your own generation into the concert hall,
Silvie Cheng:
We always speak, and we have always spoken since 2011, I would say, since becoming the Cheng2 Duo, that's something that has been important to us and that we've consistently continued to receive appreciative feedback from, is the speaking in between pieces, whether it's not necessarily always composer's biographical information, but sometimes it'll be something like this textural rub of things to listen out for, especially in a modern composition or just our own personal stories about the pieces. And I do think that helps to also establish a strong human connection with listeners.
Leah Roseman:
Absolutely. So let's talk about 2011, your Carnegie Hall debut. I think it was a bit of an unusual situation, right?
Bryan Cheng:
Yeah. We were actually asked to jump in to replace another musician at the time, and we were given a few months notice, I think. Is that right?
Silvie Cheng:
I think we were called in March for October or May for October.
Bryan Cheng:
I think it was more May
Silvie Cheng:
Around think it was May actually. Yeah,
Bryan Cheng:
I was.
Silvie Cheng:
But you were in high school.
Bryan Cheng:
I was around 13 years old when I got the call, right? Yes. I remember Sylvie was a bit more hesitant than I was naturally, because she sort of knew she lived in New York already at the time, and she knew what Carnegie Hall meant, the weight of that. And at that time, me being a fearless teenager, I was just like, yeah, let's go for it. And I also asked my teacher at that time, Yuli Turovsky in Montreal, whether or not it was a good idea. And he said, well, if you think that you're ready for it, then no one should stop you. And so we did. We took the chance. And I dunno, I guess,
Silvie Cheng:
Well, I mean, nowadays it seems no big deal, but at the time, if you have that perspective, we had only ever really been kids who played together for fun. And sure, we had played the odd recital in Ottawa, but we didn't have any kind of touring career in the way that we do now. We do now. And so that seemed like we were going from playing locally to just now playing on one of the world's largest stages. And I think at the time also, you and I wouldn't see each other that frequently. We'd see each other at Christmas and maybe March break and maybe summer, but it wasn't also always, it was just to hang out as siblings. It wasn't for any musical purpose. I think. I remember when I called home and was like, do you want to play at Carnegie Hall in five months? And he was just like, yep, let's do it. Then we had to immediately think of what program we would play, and it was very fun. It was a good leap of faith.
Leah Roseman:
So what repertoire did you choose?
Bryan Cheng:
It was an eclectic mix. Looking back now, I don't think we would ever
Silvie Cheng:
Was it Arpeggione Sonata?
Bryan Cheng:
That. Yeah, it was quite a daring. I think we did a couple of works solo each. We played some, was it Chopin or Debussy?
Silvie Cheng:
I think we played Chopin Ballade. Yeah. The reason we can't recall is because we were invited back to play there in 2013, and we always get those two programs,
Bryan Cheng:
But there was definitely mixed up
Silvie Cheng:
Oh, Brahms E minor?
Bryan Cheng:
No, I don't think that was was on the 2013.
Silvie Cheng:
Okay, sorry.
Leah Roseman:
It's fine. I was just curious.
Bryan Cheng:
I think I did Paganini Moses Variations and Arpeggione. I think it might've been even like Tchaikovsky Rococo Variations.
Silvie Cheng:
Yes. I think I played a Mozart Sonata. Yeah,
Bryan Cheng:
It was a wild mix.
Silvie Cheng:
That was the first time that we were presenting ourselves as a duo, and it was actually my teacher at the Manhattan School of Music who had asked, well, you can't just appear as Bryan and Sylvie Cheng. You need a band name. And so we reflected on the fact that people or audiences usually say that. They always say they marvel the power of two musicians or two people, and the fact that there's this kind of reverberating effect between the vibrations that happen on stage with two people, and then what happens in the hall. And so we thought about the idea of Cheng to the Power of Two or Cheng squared.
Bryan Cheng:
I should mention that even on the first Carnegie Hall title, we did play a Canadian piece by Alexina Louie.
Silvie Cheng:
That's true.
Bryan Cheng:
And then when we were invited to return, we commissioned her for two new pieces for cello and piano, and that was also one of the beginnings of our, and those two pieces are on the newest album Portrait. And so since the very beginning of this duo, the inception of ensemble, I think commissioning and championing composers of our time has been something that's very, very central to our identity. So it was definitely a long time coming this compilation in the album of Portrait to have that reflected on our recording output as well.
Leah Roseman:
So Bryan, you mentioned Yuli Turovsky. So he was your teacher mentor from a young age, right? So what were those lessons like?
Bryan Cheng:
Very intense, I would say. I remember we would, because he lived in Montreal and we lived in Ottawa, we would drive there maybe every other weekend or sometimes even further in between. And so therefore, each lesson was quite lengthy, two to three to maybe four hours sometimes. And we'd go through quite a bit of repertoire. I'd be preparing several pieces for him at a time. And when I first started studying with him, he always had great vitality, but he gradually began to decline as I progressed my studies. And he grew older. He originally, when I first started studying with him, he was always conducting and his orchestra, and he would be giving me opportunities to play as soloist, which were very, very valuable. Now looking back. And later on, he would just teach from his bed at home.
Silvie Cheng:
But well, I'd play the orchestra part and he would conduct the two of us.
Bryan Cheng:
And the music really, I mean, it gave him new energy in life every time. Somehow it would give rise to incredible bouts of inspiration and passion. And that was definitely something that infected me, his love for music and how deeply he felt about this art. And I think that was one of the greatest takeaways to see someone who, until the very last breath, pretty much was consumed by music and the search for excellence. So yeah, it was some of the most influential and crucial years of my life that I spent with him. And not only did he nurture me as a cellist, but also as a musician and a whole human, I remember it was very much of my insistence that I wanted to attend liger, a public normal high school without any particular focus on music. And he would always say, oh, go fishing. Go outside and play soccer and enjoy your life, and don't lock yourself in the practice room for hours at a time because you need to also see what the world is like and have perspective. That's something that's quite rare, I think. Although he recognized potential in me, he still wanted me to experience life as a whole, and he knew that it was very important for me to all of those elements up in order to become a more balanced person and therefore a more balanced artist.
Silvie Cheng:
But at the same time, he also gave you, I mean, coming from the Russian tradition, he gave you a very solid foundation. But I think what the thing that I still see in your playing through him is this idea that when you sort of treat, find your way around a technical challenge, if that makes sense. So Bryan now being blessed compared to when he was seven with giant, he has a very large left hand, mostly from all the stretching in comparison to his right as well. But he has, I would say, creative fingerings that his teacher in Berlin might've been like not so sure about these fingerings, but they would work for him. I think it's a very Yuli way of thinking about it, not in this box of how things are played. You're driven by the sound and by the musical intention that you have. And I think Yuli was always about sort of the soul first, and then you find a way to make that soul expressed as directly and powerfully as you can. And I think that's something that you've maintained because you really go for, you think about what are you trying to convey first, and then how do I make that happen?
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And you guys put out a double Russian album. I'm guessing a lot of that repertoire you must have played with him.
Silvie Cheng:
Definitely. Yeah, partly it was definitely for through inspiration of work with him, but also we felt so strongly we were like, we can't possibly choose making Russian album and choose the ones that would fail. There's not enough time.
Leah Roseman:
I thought we could. It was interesting that this Romance by Scriabin, I mean, I think of Scriabin, I just think of complicated piano music, but it's this beautiful Romance.
Bryan Cheng:
Yes, it shows a different side of him as a composer.
Leah Roseman:
Would it be okay to share that as part of this episode?
Bryan Cheng:
Sure.
Silvie Cheng:
Yeah, definitely.
Leah Roseman:
This is Scriabin's Romance, for cello and piano from the double album Russian Legends. This album also has music of Prokofiev, Glazunov, Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, and Arensky.(music)
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I noticed you had an album with the Violas, Georgina Rossi of Brazilian composers and some really cool music. I listened to it a little bit. Are you going to maybe explore some of those composers with Bryan?
Silvie Cheng:
Oh, that's a good question. So actually with Georgina, she's originally Chilean, and we met as students at the Manhattan School of Music, and actually, she had first asked me to play a set of Argentinian songs on her graduation recital, and that was sort of the beginning of our exploration of Latin American music. And since then, we've recorded both an album of Chilean and Brazilian, but these composers, they, interestingly, I actually haven't explored a lot of their cello piano music, if any, so I'll have to look into that. I mean, something that we do enjoy doing, both Bryan and I and Georgina and I is sort of having this discovery of composers who are perhaps lesser known, but only for historical reasons. So for example, Chiquinha Gonzaga was one of the most prolific female composers of her time. But being a woman, she sort of wasn't encouraged to be a composer and have her music published and things.
And so it's not that her music isn't deserving, but that just the time that she lived in, I mean, we're still struggling with that today, but we were obviously a lot more advanced today than we were back then. So it's things like bringing people like this to the forefront through their music, but I will admit that, yeah, I have yet to, not that I'm trying to keep them separate, but I think of we've just been so focused on the Viola and Piano works of these composers that I haven't even explored what exists out there for cello and piano by the same composers. Okay. Yeah,
Leah Roseman:
I was just curious about that. And you are involved with, as a teaching artist, I was curious about if you wanted to speak to either the Living Arts Collective or your work with the Manhattan School, the Orto Center?
Silvie Cheng:
Sure. Yeah. Manhattan School, I started working with the the Orto Center as a graduate student actually. And back then we actually used the same video conference technology that Pinchas Zukerman used to use when he was director at the NAC. And he had students at MSM. He would only go to New York I think once a month. So the other weeks that he needed to teach a student, he'd be using this cutting edge kind of like now we consider it Zoom or video conference. And it was now very ubiquitous, but at the time considered special, especially within the realm of music education. And so when I first started with the Orto Center, I was also giving lessons and master classes and group classes to piano students around the world. And I've actually now been teaching with them for 10 years, but I've only ever met one of my students in person once when she came to New York to visit some perspective schools.
But otherwise, all of my students have been online. They've been in Alaska or England or Nebraska kind of anywhere. And now my role with them has actually sort of evolved into designing programs that are more like lecture recitals. So we have themed programs in which I speak and also play, and we present these programs to both K through 12 students and also what we call adult learners or learners in perhaps senior communities who can't leave their homes now for physical or disability reasons, but still are mentally sharp and want to enrich their lives with kind of programming. So it's bringing music to places where it's not necessarily with accessible audiences in our generally traditional concert venues. So I go to a specific studio at Manhattan School Music to do these performances and things live, but it's transmitted on the internet with the technology that we have, which is pretty amazing.
And then with the Living Arts Collaborative, they were formerly known as the Bridge Arts Ensemble. It's a collective of about 30 to 40 musicians who come from a variety of backgrounds, not just classical. We have some Broadway musicians, some jazz musicians. And so we travel in these packs of six, I'll say, there's always two singers, a male and a female, a drummer, a pianist, and then two instrumentalists. And what I love about this sort of formation is that every time we go out as a group of six, it's always been different people, a different mix be based on people's schedules. Because you can imagine being, if you're on a Broadway show, you're not going for these residencies. And similarly, when I'm on tour, I'm not in this residencies. So it's always just based on everyone's availability. And it's been our work through all the schools in the Adirondack region of upstate New York.
And we've now visited, I would say pretty much every school district that you can imagine. So hundreds of thousands of students because we always go in a week long residency, and we not only perform concerts that are tailored to kids, I mean their ages, for example. So kindergarten through grade two is one particular concert that we designed every year. For example, one of them was called Old McDonald Had a Band, and then we would then introduce each of the instruments, we'd introduce the idea of harmony, rhythm, melody, things like that. But then we have a different concert for grades three through five, then six through eight, and then high school. But then not only, we also do these workshops with the kids specifically as well. So depending on if the particular school has an orchestra program or a band program, or actually even piano, we'll then give tailored workshops to whatever the students need.
And oftentimes I would say in these towns and cities, there are places where not only has arts education and funding been very much cut from the public school system, but there are also places where truly you go and there's a gas station, there's a Walmart where everyone's parents work at, and there's maybe a funeral home. And that's pretty much it. There's no other sense of entertainment or let alone culture or extracurricular that the kids can be inspired and latch onto. And I remember distinctly a few years ago, we had this talk of what do you want to be when you grow up? And 95% of the boys in this second grade class wanted to be a policeman because that was all that they could see as an option. And so to be able to go in and say, well, you could be a drummer if you want, you could be. There are other things that you can explore in life. That's the bigger picture of what we're doing.
Leah Roseman:
That's really great. I was thinking about how towards the beginning of this conversation, you were speaking about your connection to your grandmother through the music and your Chinese heritage, and your parents lived through the Cultural Revolution. They, did they ever speak to you about what that was like?
Silvie Cheng:
They are more and more open these days, I think, as kids, perhaps it was maybe still too raw to them, but I think having had some distance and reflective possibility on it there, yeah, they are more open. I mean, it's really rather shocking to be able to hear. Actually, just the other day I was home and we were hearing about how they would have rations for food. So for example, actually when my grandma was pregnant with my mom, she only ate sweet potatoes for the nine months of her pregnancy because that's all there was. So you can imagine now we talk about my friends having neonatal pills and folic acid and a wide variety of a diet. And my mom was born on a diet of sweet potatoes. And so she came out as a rather malnourished child, but she lived with her cousins in her grandmother's home, and they would only have perhaps a ration of one egg a week for the entire family of seven, let's say.
And my mom would say that oftentimes she would finish her rice and at the bottom, see that half the egg was in her bowl, but it was hidden so that the other cousins wouldn't see it, and she would get a bigger portion just because she had been so malnourished from her time in utero. So there are little things like this that come out of just the way that life was back then, but then at the same time, they also have such happy memories. So it's very interesting to see how the way that we reflect on our childhood, even when you go through such a challenging time. But I do think that informed their decision to ultimately raise their family under different circumstances. And so when it came for the opportunity for them to move to Canada, I think, and raise a family there, I think I remember one of the main ideas that they would always instill in us is to find work that made us passionate.
And I think even as the young kids, just to spend your energy doing things that you enjoy. And I think that was perhaps a choice that was never given to them, because even for them choosing what they wanted to study, it was really what did the economy need at the time? So I think there were certain avenues you could be a scientist or an engineer or whatever, but musician was just not an option. And I think on the flip side, coming to a place of such, I guess freedom is really the only, the biggest word that comes to mind, freedom and possibility. I think they wanted to expose their kids to as much as life had to offer. And then whatever we felt most compelled by was what we would turn into our career, I guess mean. It's like the saying goes, if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. And so although it was never a plan for their two kids to become musicians, they've been very supportive because they see that that's truly the thing that we wake up and love doing every day. And that was kind of the ultimate goal as parents.
Leah Roseman:
Before we started recording this morning, Sylvie, we were talking about just having been transplanted. And because you moved to New York when you were fairly young and you've stayed there, it's like this idea of growing baby roots. And I was thinking, I think I heard that you and Bryan still talk every day, even though he's in Europe, you somehow make it work.
Silvie Cheng:
Yes, thanks to technology. Yeah. I mean, back when I was a student in high school, I mean in high school, in university, and I first moved to New York, I was definitely very homesick for a few years. I think it just really was a culture shock, but I don't think I had a smartphone back then, even so I remember calling every now and then, but not necessarily the way that we have a phone right at our fingertips. So yeah, Bryan and I do speak, and I do think that actually in terms of just the business side of running a partnership together in a duo, it makes things easier because you can just check in about the calendar or any ongoing projects or ideas at a regular pace and not just sort of when That's also just the nice perk of being siblings, though I think it's, if it was someone that you were maybe in a traditional business partnership with, it might be strange or annoying to have this person call you every day. But because we're siblings, it's pretty normal. That's nice.
Leah Roseman:
And Sylvie, you'd mentioned Jeffrey Cohen, your mentor at Manhattan who helped. So what was your time with him?
Silvie Cheng:
So initially I had wanted to study with him because he was a student of Menahem Pressler, the late pianist of the Beaux Arts trio, who is was and is one of my greatest idols, I would say, and who became kind of our grand teacher. Brian and I actually both had the chance to work with him several times in the last years or so. And I think with Mr. Cohen, what I appreciated is that when I listened to students in his studio compared to perhaps some others, he had this beautiful way of teaching that really maintained an individual sense of self and their artistry. Some of us could play the same piece at the same time, and it would sound really completely different, and we would feel completely different for us. And so I appreciated that we weren't becoming kind of piano robots out of conservatory, but really true artists. And he always encouraged me to go towards music that I felt compelled to play. And I think that is the luxury of being a pianist is I could live nine times and not have enough time to learn everything fully that has been written for piano. So in that sense, really to find what spoke to me and to be able to focus on that. And yeah, I just really appreciated how much he nurtured already at a young age, what makes you individual and special. And to go towards that.
Leah Roseman:
I was thinking about, I don't like to use the word prodigy, but you both are in that category of people who excelled at a very young age. And I think it's to do with the expressive capability as well as technical. And with music, it's so much our intuitive side and our analytical side, but I'd say for any musician, whatever your level, as you get older, you're probably more aware of the analytical side. Do you guys have any thoughts about that in terms of the way you absorbed and digested music as young people?
Silvie Cheng:
It's funny because I would never consider myself a prodigy, but I would say Bryan would lean more towards that. But in my mind I say that because I think of him as more intuitive and perhaps myself is more analytical, and therefore I think being more brainy makes you less prodigious. But maybe that's just my own interpretation of that.
Bryan Cheng:
Well, personally, I also have issue with the term prodigy
Silvie Cheng:
I know.
Bryan Cheng:
It implies that there's
Silvie Cheng:
Actually no work involved. Maybe it's just a God-given talent.
Bryan Cheng:
And I definitely mean both of us definitely worked extremely diligently. And there are still times where I feel like, oh, I was not born to play the cello at all. Lots of things just do not come naturally to me. And over the years, I've had to just reinforce this armada of technique, this limited armada of technique that I have at my disposal, and as Sylvie said, find creative solutions to make things work. But to answer your question about intuitiveness versus analytical, I dunno if I've ever necessarily separated those two so distinctly from, for me, when I make music, I believe that the ideal combination is when it flows naturally in between those two states. And of course, I feel like when I'm practicing, the analytical side certainly takes precedence. We all are constantly trained to criticize and find the faults, and that's sort of how we become our own teachers eventually is we think we did that and now what can we do better? And that's the most basic analysis that we can possibly give to ourselves. But then I think what the biggest, not challenge necessarily, but transition to overcome is now then being on stage and sort of having to turn that analysis off. And for us, I think we've been very, very lucky to have been given many performance opportunities over the years and now to be touring quite regularly. And that's sort of muscle, this intuitive muscle now that comes as naturally to us, I think, as the analytical side does, but it comes through a process of trial and error and through many hardships as well.
Silvie Cheng:
And I would say now with recording, whenever our performances are recorded, whenever we listen back, I would say we listen with a very analytical ear to then improve upon that and get to the next level of intuitive. So I think it's always just this kind of constant being in flux in one state or another that it just does help you continue to be better.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, certainly as a teacher, I'm always talking to my students about going into performance mode because yes, when we're practicing, we're analyzing, and it's very hard for a lot of people, especially, they don't have that much performance opportunities to step into that completely different mode of being in the moment.
Now, are you still playing on the Bonjour Strad? Okay.
Bryan Cheng:
Yes, I am.
Leah Roseman:
I interviewed Rachel Mercer and she didn't have it at that time, but we discussed that instrument. So do you want to maybe speak to what that instrument's like?
Bryan Cheng:
Yeah, no, I think first of all, we're incredibly lucky as Canadians to have foundations like the Canada Council for the Arts we're also Canimex, which has an incredible collection of instruments, and it's to have the opportunity to play in an awe inspiring cello that is really sort of once in a lifetime. But now I'm the first cellist to have had two consecutive loans of this instrument. So I have the even greater privilege of getting to know this instrument even more deeply. And it's, I think every step of the way. I say we're both learning from each other because I do feel that I have an influence on the instrument. It's still, although it's over 300 years old, it still has a malleable sound and personality. And at the same time, very much my own artistry has been influenced by the sound possibilities and the colors that it brings out. And so it's very much a symbiotic relationship,
Leah Roseman:
I believe,
Silvie Cheng:
And for audiences, sorry. I think it's one of the only cellos where audiences are like, you'll never be able to drown that cello out. They say that to me because the idea of cello - piano balance,
Leah Roseman:
I believe Bonjour, he was just a cellist. It was his name, but it always struck me as just such a wonderful name. The "Hello".
Silvie Cheng:
Yes, very Canadian as well.
Leah Roseman:
Sylvie as a pianist touring, how do you deal with new pianos all the time that maybe don't respond how you'd like?
Silvie Cheng:
Yeah, I mean, speaking of the adaptability of being in intuitive and analytical mode, that adaptability to instruments is actually something that has also been a muscle that I would say I have trained, but continue to have to explore. It's actually kind of fun, I would say, I think because in some ways it teaches you about yourself. Every time you come to an instrument, you bring all the tools that you have and you see what works and doesn't work with a certain instrument. And if something is not working right, then you sort of create a new tool in the moment to make that work. And it does provide this feeling of spontaneity and freshness. But I will say I'm very, very envious of mostly Bryan when he gets to have the warmup. I think it's the warmup feeling that because no matter how much you get to know an instrument in dress rehearsal, you then leave it for a couple hours and then you have to kind of reacquaint to yourself with this person on stage. But it's something that definitely as well.
Bryan Cheng:
It's security as well, right? That you lack, sometimes.
Silvie Cheng:
Definitely. Yeah. I was actually having a conversation with a pianist friend of mine, and we were thinking about, I think pianists more so than other in instrumentalists, tend to have this focus or frenzy about practicing this idea of practicing. You constantly think of a pianist like, oh, we need to practice. I think it's not only all the notes, but I was reflecting on just the psychological security. And I think it's that no matter how much time you spend at a instrument, it's generally not the instrument that you're going to perform on. So you develop some level of security, but then you're immediately thrown into this feeling of insecurity that you have to then find yourself again at every instrument. So I think that might be one of the deep rooted reasons why we over prepare so that we're kind of prepared in any situation that the piano throws at us.
Leah Roseman:
That's really interesting. I was thinking about preparation and competitions, Bryan, I know you've done a lot of competitions and you won the OSM competition and the Queen Elizabeth, you did twice, and I thought it might be interesting to reflect on the first time versus the second time when you were more successful and more older.
Bryan Cheng:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, competitions have been definitely an integral part of my musical development. I definitely would not say that it's for everyone though. It's, I think if you develop a healthy relationship with competitions, if you manage to approach it with a certain positive mindset, then it can really do wonders because it creates this very concrete goal for you to strive towards. And for me, every time I've participated or even prepared for a competition, I felt this massive rise in my level of playing. And with the Queen Elizabeth specifically. Yeah, interesting to compare the two times, which were six, five years in between. First time I went was the very first international competition that I ever participated in, and I was definitely a tiny fish in the ocean, having that feeling of also being quite young, I think 18 or 19 years old, and just being with the crème de la crème of cellists of that generation. And so I was kicked out of the first round, but I think that honestly was one of the great learning experiences for me and a wake up call to be like, okay, this is the real level of where we're aiming for.And therefore, since then I had always this sound in my mind or this vision of what I was trying to achieve, not for results or anything, just for the sake of wanting to be the more excellent version of myself that I had in mind. And so then when the opportunity came for me to participate again, I definitely knew what to expect and what I expected of myself too. And of course, preparation wise, I also, having had a few competitions in between those two experiences, very much had my routine set up and developed a level of comfort in high stress situations. So all of those cocktail of different learning experiences helped me to get to as far as I did in the next edition, which is 2022. And yeah, I think ultimately for me, competitions have always just been the stepping stone towards the future that you hope to achieve whatever path that is. And along the way, if it brings some measures of success and some boosts for your, in terms of financially or career wise, that's always a bonus. But I think the ultimate impetus, the base reason for participating should always be from a place of self-improvement.
Leah Roseman:
Do you have certain pre-concert routines, either of you, that you want to share, that you think could help other people?
Silvie Cheng:
I used to have to eat a banana, but I don't have to do that anymore. So I'm trying to think of, we're both pretty generally, just
Bryan Cheng:
Easygoing.
Silvie Cheng:
Yeah. I think we've also, speaking of adaptability, you sort of realize that when you're in different places, we were just in India a couple of months ago and then South Africa before that, sometimes I guess we've developed these routines that don't rely on anything external that might not be able to be provided, for example. So I think for me, I'm used to not having an instrument by my side to warm up on. And so I just sort of sit in silence and I would say center my breathing. That's probably something that I do no matter where I go. And I'm usually listening to Bryan warming up, so he's getting me in the zone of the music that we're going to play, and I'm just getting my body and my mind centered. But we generally kind of unplug from the world, which we're not really on our phones or anything leading up to that. But yeah, I think it's a simple routine.
Bryan Cheng:
I would say it's of course, a very personal rhythm that you have to find out for yourself. But the goal, I guess, is in creating a routine, whatever it is, however, elaborate is to find yourself in a space that is so familiar and so isolated from whatever is happening around you that the moment you walk on stage, you can feel like you can be at your best. And I think whatever we do and try to create those scenarios is finding that space and freedom to allow us to feel that way where we're in that zen zone that I call it. And so for me, it's like, or for both of us, it's freedom of distraction, maybe some sort of light nutrition to keep the calories going, and just being in the most healthy and focused mindset.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. You mentioned your recent tours. I was curious about your tour in India and you played as a duo, this piece by Dinuk Wijeratne, which is on Portrait
Bryan Cheng:
Of an imaginary sibling.
Leah Roseman:
Yes. Portrait of an Imaginary Sibling. Do you want to speak to that piece? And maybe we could include a clip of it.
Bryan Cheng:
Yeah. Dinuk is like Paul, someone who we've admired for many, many years, both his music and his musicianship being pianist and conductor and improviser himself. And this piece came about in 2019 approximately when finally we had a chance to work with Dinuk on that commission, and we just started discussing the concept of the piece. And it was tied into a project celebrating Beethoven's 250th anniversary. So he had chosen Beethoven's third Sonata to be inspired by to write his piece. And while we were just brainstorming about what the piece would look like or sound like, both all three of us came to the conclusion that we feel similarly, that pieces take on a life of their own, and that they have almost a personality in a way, and that they're almost like living beings. And so we started to consider what might this new piece sound like, what the personality traits of this piece be like? And so we came up with adjectives like mercurial, temperamental, adventurous, audacious, and they all sort of seemed to point in the direction of a younger sibling. And so Dinuk not having any siblings himself, people asking us if we have more siblings, which we do not. And Beethoven also being an only child, we thought that it could be a portrait of a sibling of one of us.
Silvie Cheng:
That's why it's an imaginary sibling. It's not the imaginary sibling.
Bryan Cheng:
So it's sort of this fictitious portrait of another feisty young human being born into this world. And therefore, whenever we play this piece, but especially for the audiences in India, because it has such a strong Indian, classical music influence, it's always interesting to hear the reactions of people who are being introduced to this person, let's say for the first time. And that's one of the joys of bringing this piece on tours, hearing the impressions of audience members.
Silvie Cheng:
Yeah, I mean in this piece, Bryan imitates the Indian instrument, the sarangi, which is kind of almost like the erhu of India, right? It also was this expressive, and I play these Beethoven rhythms that are transformed into a groove that sounds like it could be played on tabla drums. And so it was very interesting, I think for Indian audiences to immediately feel this connection to music that they're familiar with, but through the lens of a modern Canadian composer.
Leah Roseman:
And did you do, I'm not familiar with the trajectory of these tours in India where it's such a big country. Where did you go?
This next musical selection is an excerpt from Dinuk Wijeratne “Portrait of an Imaginary Sibling’from the album Portrait.(music)
Bryan Cheng:
This time we were just in Mumbai and Puna, which is about four hours away from. But yeah, the thing that we love exploring new territories and new parts of the world, it's one of the great joys of our profession, let's say. But we also see that there are many places, such as in India where classical music has not really taken as much of a hold as in other countries. And so it's our way of bringing a little bit of what we've learned and experienced from our different educations and backgrounds to a new land where music, this may not be so familiar to everyone's ears.
Silvie Cheng:
Well, they have their own history, such long history of their own music. So I think that's actually what compelled us to program Dinuk's music, is to sort of form this bridge between their music that they're familiar with, and then music that perhaps we are more familiar with here. And I think that sort of opens up conversations already. And there were many, many young musicians learning classical instruments at these concerts that we're really happy to discover these composers. And then it would be the ultimate goal for them to be able to play this music that we're creating now. And so sort of leaving behind this repertoire that can be the classical music of today and perhaps be the standards in two, 300 years.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, it's exciting. It was really great to have this opportunity to sit down and talk to both of you like this. And thanks for sharing your music too.
Silvie Cheng:
Thanks so much.
Bryan Cheng:
Sure. Yeah, of course.
Silvie Cheng:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Pleased to share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at leahroseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. The link is in the description. Have a wonderful week.
