Colleen Allen Transcript
Colleen Allen:
I had some moments where I felt like I was going to explode if I didn't get to play a certain thing that I heard, or I felt like so much desire, like a craving that, "I don't know what it is about this piece of music, but I have to play it or I have to listen to it a hundred times."
Leah Roseman:
Hi, you're listening to Conversations with Musicians with Leah Roseman. Multi-instrumentalist, Colleen Allen is a versatile and expressive performer based in Toronto, Canada. In this conversation we talked about her perspectives on evaluating priorities, rising to new challenges, collaboration, teaching improvisation, and the physical challenges of playing so many different instruments. Colleen's candid warmth and love of music really shine through in this wide ranging conversation. The link for both the podcast and video is in the description, also linked to the transcript.
Hi, Colleen Allen. Thanks for joining me today.
Colleen Allen:
Hi, Leah, nice to be here. Thanks for the invitation.
Leah Roseman:
Well, I fell in love with Manteca, which I had never heard that band before I started researching Mark Ferguson and then I found out about that, and I was asking him about you, and he said, "You should definitely try to get Colleen on the series." So I'm so glad you agreed.
Colleen Allen:
Well, thank you. And Mark is a good friend and obviously a wonderful musician. So thanks Mark for the connect.
Leah Roseman:
And it's interesting because I think when people think of women in jazz, too often it's a vocalist because I think that's the most common role that women play. Also, I want to talk about, of course, your career and everything, but I was thinking right away about mentorship and your role for other women as both a reed player and as a jazz musician. And if we could just start with that. Did you have role models coming up through your education?
Colleen Allen:
Well, I had a few, few and far between and role models who probably weren't women. To have a female role model was very unusual. Kathryn Moses, she might have been the first woman saxophone player flutist that I had seen in a performing setting playing Jazz live. And she was playing with her band, I think it was at Jazz Festival. And I had seen her with Bruce Cockburn. And it was just the coolest thing to see this woman walk on stage and she's this an instrumentalist, also a great singer, but primarily an instrumentalist in this band. And it was deeply meaningful for me. It made me feel like you can't be it if you can't see it. I hadn't thought of that before because all of the saxophone players are men, especially in jazz, that I've grown up with, all the music that I listened to and aspire to. So I never really thought about it being a woman. I just thought, "Okay, I want to be one of the guys so badly." And that was always what I aspired to was just belonging.
Then to see a woman on stage, Jane Fair as well, wonderful saxophone player from Montreal, and she's also a friend. Both of them I've become friends with, and Kathryn of course passed away a year and a half ago. But she's left a legacy. And so important for me. In my role now as one of the elders in my community here in Toronto, I do think about mentoring. And I've taught at Humber College in the jazz studies program for about 20 some odd years, I'm not there now, and I loved it. The courses that I taught, I taught a first year improv class, performance classes, and there'd be many years where there were no women in the class. So I was the only one. And trying to establish as an older female jazz musician, which my students, the male students would not have seen much of, is to earn my cred and to be able to get them on board that I have something to share and to offer to you when it's like, "Well, how come I don't get to be in that guy's class or that guy's class?" So I just have to kick their butts from day one and earn my keep. And I did. We always came to an agreement.
But anyway, all of that to say that the next generation of musicians that are coming out of school and that I'm able to work with and are a part of my colleagues, there's many more young, really good jazz improvising musicians. And on various instruments, not just on saxophone. There's some incredible ones. Tara Davidson, Alison Young, Rebecca Hennessy, Marie Goudy on trumpet. Both of them are trumpet players. Elena Kapeleris. So there's another generation. I think for me it was Carrie Chestnut, Margot Davidson and myself who were the sax players that were part of the community and try and find our way, yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And Jane Bunnett and her group, Maqueque, you've done some collaboration with them?
Colleen Allen:
Yes. Well, Jane, I can't believe I didn't mention Jane first, although she's closer to my age than Kathryn so I wouldn't have seen Jane, I would say, she's a little bit older than me, but we would've grown up musically. She was sort of ahead of me in establishing her career. And I haven't played with Maqueque. In fact, I opened for them at a concert in Burlington. And I've worked with members of the band and with Joanna Majoko, wonderful vocalist. And Jane is like a beacon of light. And for her too, especially as a specialist in Cuban music, she has carved an indelible path through I can only imagine the kind of challenges that she would've had as a woman - in Cuban studying and embracing and playing music from Cuban traditions. So she's amazing. Continues to be. And she sounds fantastic. Yeah, so Jane. I'm sorry, you asked me about Jane and then I realized that I hadn't talked about her yet. So what was your question about her again? Oh, collaboration with Maqueue.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I was wondering if you had... Yeah.
Colleen Allen:
Yeah, our paths have crossed for sure, and Jane, she's a friend, and we find each other on collective festivals from time to time. We don't often get to play together, but I would love more of that.
Leah Roseman:
And you had studied at Humber college and then later taught there. Did the school change? Or the way things were taught, did that evolve?
Colleen Allen:
Definitely, yeah. I'm only laughing because, it's probably not funny, but the whole world has changed. And I think jazz music might be the last bastion of embracing the positive changes from the #MeToo movement about equity and diversity and just how we... And school has become more codified. The jazz music was always taught, as you know and your listeners probably well known, I mean it was a mentorship. You hung out, you went to clubs, you got your ass kicked, going to jam sessions, and you just tried to absorb through osmosis and through mentorship the music, the improvisation, the lifestyle and the belonging. And that's going back into the original days, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, of course, Miles Davis back 1940s and 1950s and '60s. As the music and the language has spread, has become more diverse and there's less places to play, people are going to school because the best teachers are at school now.
So you've got all the players that would've been doing all of that touring and playing six nights a week in different clubs and traveling are now part of great venerable jazz education schools like Berklee College, like Manhattan School, New School, North Texas of course, and in Canada, Humber College, U of T, McGill and others. But those at StFX. But those are the ones that sort of started embracing it. So going to school and getting a jazz education degree, a degree in jazz studies or in performance studies, is possible now whereas it wasn't before. And the opportunities for education are there. So there are more students, there are more bodies studying. And I've sort of skipped over the #MeToo part of it. It was a very bro school, Humber for sure, U of T as well, where there were male teachers and you could say things and get away things that would be really distasteful or inappropriate now. And they were either impactful because that's how the language got passed on or it was funny or it was considered funny.
And positive changes have happened in terms of the education because of that, but also because of the way that jazz information is getting passed on now is through school. So there's more people, there's more oversight, there's more structure, I would say, as well in terms of the kind of courses that are offered. Then there's the courses that by the time students get to post high school education, a lot of them have already had a really fantastic program in high school or they may have studied in a community or a weekend program that was also being taught by really amazing jazz musicians. So yeah, I guess it's sort of one thing, it feeds from both sides of that I think.
Leah Roseman:
Now I assume you started in a school band program?
Colleen Allen:
I did. In Ottawa, actually, I went to Gloucester High School. Monsieur Turpin was our high school music teacher and he was rigorous and a really interesting and wonderful teacher. There's a lot of us that went on to have music as our careers, and I would say because of his rigor and balanced approach to teaching. So we improvised, we played in band, but there was also a strong classical training side of it and music history and connecting the dots between all those things. He was a wonderful teacher and we were very lucky to have that.
I started playing saxophone in high school, so that was the beginning of it. And then I felt like I knew that music, I found my people. When I was in band class or in musicals or that kind of setting, I had found my community. At that point, I wasn't sure what I was going to do with a music education, but I did decide I went to Mohawk College for two years and then I went to Humber College. I come from a family of nurses, so I was thinking music therapy, some sort of healing side of the large umbrella of a music education where it can lead. Then I started performing and I was like, "Hmm, this feels pretty good." And being on stage and playing, performing, that really spoke to me and I started having opportunities in that area. So I just followed through on that.
Leah Roseman:
Before we leave the Humber and the whole education thing, there's a couple things you said that struck me. You used the expression, "getting your ass kicked" in the context of jam sessions, and also teaching. So is that because it's intimidating and hard when you're first improvising and you're not quite at the level? Or is there something more going on?
Colleen Allen:
Yeah, it's a good question. I think, for sure, it's a striving art form. You never arrive. Probably say that about many things. Getting your ass kicked, meaning being challenged on what you don't know and finding the... There's other ways to motivate, I think, to be able to do the work. There's no free rides. A lot of the time for guitar players, rhythm section players tend to show up with a lot more playing experience because they're jamming instruments so they would be playing together in somebody's basement in high school and that was part of their social life. As horn players, that isn't as common. It's not a campfire instrument, saxophone's not a campfire kind of instrument. We need to play together. And certainly for me, there were no places outside of high school that that happened.
So by the time students get to a first year improv class, you might have a guitar player who can shred in E minor but not be able to read very well, won't have had the opportunity to learn that aspect of their instrument or playing in different keys or being able to do different voicings. Whereas, a drummer... Everybody arrives with something to learn. That's why they're going to school. Sometimes the motivation is you can talk it, you can show it, but at a certain point you got to do the work. So the ass kicking part of it is like, "Okay, next week we got to do these tunes, so get them together or don't, but we're moving on to other stuff." For me, I guess I'm using ass kicking, because that's probably what I grew up with. Have you seen Whiplash? Did you see that film?
Leah Roseman:
I don't think I have.
Colleen Allen:
As an improvising musician, the context of this is that Whiplash, there's a really badass old school guy teacher and there's a drummer who's aspiring to play in this band, in this big band, and he's not cutting it. And eventually chairs get thrown and screaming and yelling and that's the ass kicking. That's the motivation. It's interesting. And I imagine as a non-musician, we all know what that felt like because we were in those circumstances, certainly in the earlier days of imparting information, but there's no connection to the emotional, like why? What's the spiritual or emotional connection to the music? That's also a driving force is, "This makes me feel something." Or the end of this is going to be, "I'm going to move an audience. This is going to be expressive." And that I found was lacking in Whiplash. I mean it's an entertaining film though.
Leah Roseman:
With your first year improv students when you're teaching them, did you use blues as a springboard?
Colleen Allen:
I did it at first because it felt like it's a simpler kind of harmonic form. It's a simpler 12 bar, or usually a very basic form, 12 bar form. It's repetitive. So I used to. But I found that it was limiting. The same things that make it easy also make it hard to move on to other things because it's easy to default to a typical blues scale sound. But I found that what I gravitated towards was thinking more of melodic improvisation. So even taking familiar Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star or something like a melody and just trying to create a melody over even the first five notes of a major scale or pentatonic major sound. And to just try and create a connection to melodic improvisation as opposed to learning your scales and being able to shred them. I was feeling a malaise in terms of how I was teaching because I felt like, "I can hear you're going for this thing, but we're not connecting again on that emotional level."
So sometimes, especially because I had vocalists in my class as well... Usually, there'd be three or four singers, three or four horn players, three or four bass, three or so of every instrument. So to try and find a way of threading and creating, I guess, connection seems to be the word that's coming to mind. So I just started, we would just improvise sometimes just, "Okay, I'm just going to start playing and then I'm going to pass it over to you. And it's sort of like telephone. And it doesn't matter what you play, but maybe..." And we're having a conversation right now and in terms of our conversation, we're connecting to an idea. So I would play something and say to the next player, bass player, let's say, "You can play whatever you want, but maybe if you think of it as a conversation, maybe you're going to pick up on a rhythm that I've just played or a note that I've just played or ba da da da da, and then use that as a starting point for your improvisation, which can go anywhere and pass."
So different ways of doing it. I guess what it came down to, and I had this epiphanal moment in a class where I realized, and this was not in an improv class, but it's so appropriate for that, I realized that really what we're doing is learning how to listen to each other. By bringing things down to a lower common denominator, eliminating some of the technical stuff and then we're going to play this scale over that chord and we're going to do this and that, I just took away a lot of the information and said, "Just listen, let's just try starting with listening." The response in the class for me was really good. I felt better about... And eventually you got to learn all of that technical stuff is going to enable more facility as an improviser. But got to start with something that means something.
And it's the best feeling in the world to be playing with people and you play something and then they play it back to you. It's like, "Oh my God, you're listening to me. You're hearing what I'm saying. I didn't like what I played, but you played it back to me. I thought it sounded great, so I'm going to play it again." Or whatever the response is. But it's so respectful to be listened to. So we have to learn how to listen. And that's what the common denominator ended up being for me.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, just a quick break from the episode. I'm an independent podcaster who does all the many jobs required to produce the series, and there are a lot of costs I bear as well. Please consider either buying me a virtual coffee as a tip or becoming a monthly supporter, starting at $3 Canadian, which is close to $2 US or €2, and getting access to unique perks. The link is in the description. Now, back to the episode.
I had mentioned the blues, and actually you've had a long association with the Toronto Blues Society Women's Revue.
Colleen Allen:
Yes, yes. So the Women's Blues Revue, I might be the longest standing member of the show. I don't even know how many years it's been going on, maybe 30 something. And I've missed a couple, and I don't think I was at the very first one, but I've done most of them, let's say. I've been lucky enough to be a part of the group. It's a really great celebration of blues, just as large as the umbrella of jazz is incorporating so many different styles, blues similarly there's many different styles of blues. And then of course jazz and blues are also connected. This is a celebration of all of that, including original material, more soul, r&b kind of blues, traditional Delta Chicago blues, depending on who the artists are.
The show's evolved since I first started. Evelyne Datl was the music director, she's a great composer pianist in Toronto. And there were some other... Let's see, who else? The horn section, Sarah McKelkrin, Carrie Chestnut, myself. And then there were men that were playing the roles that women had not been able to take over yet. And it often came down to the drums, Bucky Berger was our drummer for many years. And now there's enough women who play. It's an all women band. It has been for quite a few years now. And we've evolved to that and it's super exciting. Any specific things about?
Leah Roseman:
Well, I was just looking up the larger umbrella organization, curious why is there this Toronto Blues Society and I guess it was a response to the disco era and blues clubs were starting to close down and there was a concern that we're going to lose this music. And it's funny to think back of what was going on in popular music at the time.
Colleen Allen:
Yeah, I guess. I was right there when that was happening. And I remember, again, that word malaise. I remember feeling slightly embarrassed that I grew up in the disco era, but there was so much great music that happened. When I look back on it now, for me, the high school years were in the 1970s, it was a fantastic time to be growing up as a musician. There was a lot going on. But yeah, the Blues Society, it's great. And the Women's Blues Revue is a big fundraiser for them. It's really well attended. We started it at the Horseshoe Tavern in Toronto and then graduated to the Diamond Club and then the Danforth Music Hall and then Massey Hall. We're now a Massey Hall show. And we get close to, if not sold out every year, and it's a really well supported show and showcase. There's a house band and then there's six artists that are performing. Every year there's a different group of artists that perform, and there's lots and it's great.
Leah Roseman:
So when did you start playing the flute? Because you do play so many different instruments.
Colleen Allen:
So again, through playing jazz music, if you're playing in a big band, a saxophone player in a big band, you're expected that you're going to be able to play flute and clarinet. So I guess I started when I was in college. The woodwind parts in big band music, particularly if you're playing something like Tokisho Akiyoshi, the woodwind parts are not commensurate with the level of skill of the woodwind players if they start on saxophone. It's expected that you can do it. And it's a big challenge for us saxophone players to really authentically play flute and clarinets. So at that young age still sort of figuring out being a good saxophone player, I remember hyperventilating quite a bit playing the flute. And then the clarinet, the mystery of the clarinet and trying to... I became really good at playing specific parts on the flute and on the clarinet out of necessity. And then I loved them so much I started studying it more seriously on all the instruments. But it's a lifelong commitment.
Leah Roseman:
Ergonomically, Colleen, have you had challenges, some of the big heavier instruments, I imagine neck straps help, but with the weight on your hands?
Colleen Allen:
Oh yeah, excellent question. Yeah, I've had to work at that from different angles. I actually have my next strap on now. This one, it's called a neck strap, but it doesn't touch my neck at all. It's got claws on the back and then there's a stomach brace I guess. And it's fairly light and it keeps the weight off my neck. I have another strap that I use that's like an exoskeleton strap for when I'm playing bari I can use it on this strap, but I get to use a bit more of my body. It's ergonomically more efficient with my frame to bari sax. But also I had to start doing a big commitment to my physical health to be able to not hurt my hands, my upper body, my back. So I start my day doing yoga and I bike ride everywhere just to get enough breathing and cardio going. It's an ongoing process to stay healthy to be able to continue to play.
Leah Roseman:
Do you find you have to do more strength training as you get older?
Colleen Allen:
Yes, absolutely. Weight training and upper body strength. It's something I never considered before, but just being able to lift instruments up and put them in the back of my car, baritone, base clarinet, all the gear. And that kind of movement is unconscious movement in a way. It's like, "Oh, I'm lifting, I'm pulling." So the more that I do conscious exercise, the more that I'm able to just facilitate what I need to get from there to there with all this stuff. I should send you a little photograph, I have a cart, a little uline cart that where I live in Toronto was close enough for me to walk to where they have the jazz festival now in town. So I had a three gigs in a row and I was playing baritone and bass clarinet for the first gig. Tenor, flute, soprano and clarinet on the second one. And then I was playing alto and flute on the third one. So I had all of these instruments in my uline cart and I just walked over with it and it was good. I felt by the time I got there, my oxygen was going. My dad used to say the saying, "It's a bit much." And it's a bit much. But it's also when I'm there and I'm playing those instruments, I'm like, "This is perfect. I love this. This is what I want to be doing."
Leah Roseman:
Well, you'll be sharing a video that we'll edit in of you demonstrating some of your instruments. But you also offered, you might be able to display a solo for us, it your alto or your tenor?
Colleen Allen:
Yeah, I've got my alto handy. I could do that.
Leah Roseman:
Is that your favorite range?
Colleen Allen:
I started on tenor and then I started playing flute and clarinet and then I played alto. And they all have meaning for me. They're all quite special. But I guess I probably know more tunes on alto and it's easier to carry on my bike and it's the one that I have out. Yeah. And I have a good reed, whoever's got a good reed going is my favorite. All right. So I'll just play a tune for you.
Leah Roseman:
Lovely. Thank you so much.
Colleen Allen:
Oh, you're welcome. That was If I Were a Bell.
Leah Roseman:
I love your tone and your nuance when you play. I think I had some bad early experiences with sax players playing in high school band. And then when I went to McGill University, there was this one super echoey practice room that didn't have any in sound insulation and the jazz sax players loved to practice in there. And sometimes I'd be stuck with my violin next to them trying to hear myself and they'd be shredding.
Colleen Allen:
Oh, as one does. Yes, I know. On behalf of all of us, I apologize.
Leah Roseman:
Is it a challenge playing transposing instruments in big band, having to think differently?
Colleen Allen:
Well, I don't have perfect pitch. Do you have perfect pitch?
Leah Roseman:
No.
Colleen Allen:
Perfect relative pitch probably. So I don't have perfect pitch. So the fact that I'm in a different key than the concert instrument is not an issue. And in a big band, it's all transposed for us. However, I have acquired transposition skills, so if I'm looking at a lead sheet or a piano lead sheet, I can transpose for alto or like E flat or B flat instruments no problem. It's just one of our tools in our toolkit. I think we're sort of expected. And for me, it just means that I have options if it's somebody's original music and I feel like maybe I want to play alto, maybe a soprano, I don't know what I'm going to play on this, it's nice to have concert pitch. But if I'm looking at a scored part or something like that, usually transposed.
Okay, so I thought it might be kind of fun to share a video with you of, as I said, my dad said, "It's a bit much." I've been playing with Manteca and on this particular recording I have nine different instruments that I'm playing. So this video will give you an example of some of those instruments. But I'm surrounded by them and I call my music station The Pawn Shop because there's also an accordion in there, which I do play a little bit. So this is Manteca and me playing a bunch of different instruments.
Leah Roseman:
Thank you, Colleen. I really am a big fan of Manteca and actually Matt Zimbel will be featured on the series coming up soon.
Colleen Allen:
Ooh, great. Well, he's the one that's going to give permission for me to play the video.
Leah Roseman:
I was watching the movie he made last night about his dad. Have you seen it?
Colleen Allen:
I have seen it. Isn't that beautiful?
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, really beautiful.
Colleen Allen:
Yeah. Matt is a very special person. And his two brothers too. Very creative family. His dad is an interesting man and had a fantastic career. The film is beautifully done.
Leah Roseman:
It is, yeah. You had mentioned the accordion. I was going to ask you about that because as a reed player I was wondering if you played piano, but then I remembered you played accordion. So has that helped you in terms of writing music and arranging to have more of a harmonic?
Colleen Allen:
Well, I did start out as a piano player. It's functional for me now. It's great for ranging, for writing, but I don't consider myself a pianist whatsoever. However, I do have enough training on the instrument. The accordion, it started off as a wannabe in the rhythm section feeling. And in fact, I think the first time I ever played one in performance might have been in the Women's Blues Revue. And it was just sort of an appropriate, it might have been in one of the recordings, there was some accordion. So my friend Sarah did it first and then I tried it and really liked it. Again, I wouldn't consider myself an accordionist, but it's a color that I can use and it breathes like a wind instrument and I have enough keyboard facility that I can play it and connect to the breathing. So it's not at a stretch really to think about playing. And most people have enough piano playing that they can play simpler. I think of it more as texture and color and it's part of the sound palette.
I did do a theater show that I actually had to walk out on stage and play according and get the left hand and right hand going, which requires a bit of coordination. And that might have been one of the more terrifying things I've ever had to do. I'm the only source of music. I'm walking across the stage and I'm having to play this instrument that's fairly new to me. But what I realized, I watched the actors every night before the show, they'd come and they'd rehearse their collective lines and parts together and I figured I just need to rehearse the walking with the accordion. And once I did that, I knew when I needed to move and when I was going to turn. So I learned from the actors how to be a better accordion actor.
Leah Roseman:
I once was asking a theater actress how she memorized her lines and she said for her it was very physical, that every line, every section had a physical motion associated with it in her body and her mind. And I'm always curious talking to jazz musicians how you guys remember the names of tunes, how you memorize so many chord progressions that are kind of similar. How does that work for you?
Colleen Allen:
I guess it's repetition, but I've gotten smarter and faster about that. Plus I probably have some pretty good neural pathways for doing it for so long. But I remember, I think it's different learning tunes and repertoire as opposed to learning material. For instance, the one thing that I had to memorize that was the most astounding amount of information was the first gig that I did with Manteca. And Matt said, "No music stands, you have to memorize it." And Kelly Jefferson and I were... This was when the band just started up again after their hiatus and John Johnson wasn't able to do the show so I was subbing for him. And I thought, "Okay, well I'm just going to do repetition, I'm going to play it over and over and over again." And these are all parts, it's not like there's necessarily a melody, it's internal parts and a lot of them, because we're the singers, there's no singer in the band, the horns are the singers.
And what I realized from doing it was that I was taking a mental image. I could actually write out the parts because I memorized what it looked like. I knew at the bottom of page two there was a line that was leading to the top of page three. And then there was four bar. I could actually visualize a chart, which was shocking to me because I never thought of myself as a visual learner until that moment. And so I think that the learning repertoire is oral. Sometimes it's a chart. But for me, if I'm learning standards, I'm looking at it looking at a concert piece of music and concert changes that I'm transposing in my head. So I think I take it in more orally and repetition and playing along with recordings. It's a bit more forgiving than playing a perfect execution of a... You can get away with more nuance and interpretation.
But it was funny, when we got to the gig, and it was Kelly and I, we did it and it was a lot of repertoire. But the trumpet player showed up to the first rehearsal in the gig and he had a music stand and all the charts. I'm like, "Dude, I thought we were supposed to memorize this." And he said, "Well, they're up there jingling and jingling and I'm going to be looking at my effing charts." So I thought, "You mean you could actually say that? I didn't have to memorize?" But I was glad that I did. It was really good for me. It was very challenging. And I think I created, again those neural pathways that hadn't been created before. But how about you? How do you memorize repertoire?
Leah Roseman:
I don't. I'm an orchestral player.
Colleen Allen:
Right.
Leah Roseman:
And as a student we had to memorize things and it was always challenging. Someone had asked me, oh yeah, Mike Essoudry he's a jazz drummer, his episode will be up before yours. He'd said, "You must know so much repertoire by heart as a violinist." I said, "Well, soloists do, but I don't." And actually, many years ago I was asked to play, it was part of a Mozart opera and it was like you don't have to play the whole opera if your string quartet will play this little bit that's kind of on stage and you have to be in costume. So it seemed like a great deal. But then they said, "We really would like you to memorize it." But I said, "There's absolutely no way. I'm not going to deal with those nerves." And actually I remember, we had to climb up, it's sort of what you said about going on stage. We were wearing these wigs and tons of makeup and it was very high up. And I remember I was scared of the height. And it was a simple part. But if I'd had to worry about memorizing, it would've been a whole other layer of difficulty for me.
Colleen Allen:
Well, and I think that you touched on a really important thing, which is the nerves. It is one thing to internalize it, to feel comfortable with it. But then it's a bunch of performances would probably back off the nerves. And it's dealing with the nerves that's huge. Huge part piece of it. Usually more than the music often. Do you get ever get nervous or anxious before you perform? You play with the same people probably most of the time.
Leah Roseman:
I always do get nervous. And actually on my YouTube channel I've sort of done a mini talk about nerves because I've been dealing with it my whole life and things that have helped me. But I think one thing that helped was realizing that some of the chemicals you're getting, because we were taught about fight or flight, it's sort of that's... How can I summarize this briefly? So what I was learning pretty recently actually is that a lot of that research was done by basically torturing animals 50 years ago. And they came up with conclusion that that's what happens when people are scared. But they were terrifying these animals and that then they looked at what happened to their bodies.
But actually, often when we're under stress because of nerves, it's not the fight or flight, it's actually a challenge state, which is a very positive state. But you feel some of the same things. This heightened awareness, your heart might race. But this can help you perform well. And it's more complicated than that. But I'll just say that one realization has been one thing that's helped me. But when we're nervous, I would think it would affect reed players too, as I think as descending from apes, we have a tendency to grasp. And as a violinist it's the worst thing you can do is grab your bow, your violin too tightly. And I think a lot of us are aware that will start to happen when you're very nervous or even a little bit nervous as opposed to the practice room where things are just flowing beautifully. Has that affected you, that sort of grabbing feeling?
Colleen Allen:
Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. Again, the physical work that I'm doing now to stay in good physical shape is also a mind body and to try and eliminate because it's not helpful. It doesn't help performance, it hinders. So it's a very conscious work to try and breathe. I play a breathing instrument, so to keep the air going, keep the breath going.
Leah Roseman:
But actually one thing I'm curious about, because when players almost always breathe through their mouths in order to get a lot of air very quickly, but that can sort of lead to more anxiety from what I understand, if on a daily basis you're breathing through your mouth, it's because it's more of an anxiety situation or emergency as opposed to breathing through your nose. Have you run across that?
Colleen Allen:
I haven't thought about it other than in the context of I have a couple of friends who talk about nose breathing and as an alternative to using asthma medication, they have done some training. And I've done some of long drives on a tour, whatever, and had long conversations about this. So it makes sense to me. And I do try and breathe through my nose, certainly in meditative kind of... When I'm consciously thinking about it, nose breathing, as I am right now.
Leah Roseman:
We talked a little bit about arranging. Now you have the saxophone quartet as well.
Colleen Allen:
Yes.
Leah Roseman:
Have you written a lot of arrangements for them?
Colleen Allen:
That was one of the things that I started doing during COVID was just having the time for it. It's a high maintenance choice I've made to play all these different instruments and they require a lot of work. So to be able to spend that time during COVID. I was curious about the sound. I was just running, I hadn't thought about doing it because I just love playing in the quartet and we have tons of great repertoire. But I thought it would be fun to try and do a couple of sax quartets. And then I recorded them with me playing all of the parts. So it was fun to write the arrangements and then to do the demos. It was great, great fun.
In fact, that led to another project. I work with a singer named Molly Johnson, a jazz singer. Last year at this time, she was doing a new Christmas record for her and she asked me to arrange one of the tunes. And was it Julie London? I can't remember who this singer was. Anyway, it's a sweet, sweet tune. Winter's Got Spring Up Its Sleeve is the name of the song. And she said, "I want you to arrange this and I want you to make it flutey." And I'm like, "Oh, flutey. Okay." So that was the direction for this arrangement. And anyways, so I did, and I did it for five woodwind, so two C flutes, one alto flute, two clarinets and base clarinet. No, one clarinet and bass clarinet. So there were five. And there'd be enough flutes to make it sound flutey. And that was great.
So it was a big high bar challenge in the sense that I was doing it, I played all the parts so I could hear what it would sound like. And then we went in the studio and recorded it with three woodwind players. I played the first flute part, and then there was another player who played second flute and clarinet. And then the alto flute and the bass clarinet player doubled those parts. Anyway, was really fun to get to stretch that muscle. And I really like it. I would love to spend more time arranging and writing and that's the one thing, lots of challenges during COVID, but that was one of the things that I had the time and I was able to spend it doing a lot of work, which was great.
Leah Roseman:
I discovered Molly Johnson singing through researching yourself. And really she's such an incredible, expressive singer. What have you learned, because you've worked with her a lot, what have you learned in terms of music making from her?
Colleen Allen:
Well, Molly is a really interesting artist. She's got an iconic voice. And she calls herself a lazy singer because she doesn't warm up and she's very casual about it. However, she studied at the National Ballet School for maybe 10 years, I don't know, eight or 10 years. She studied. She was there with Veronica Tennant and she was being groomed to be Canada's first prima ballerina of color. And she had the skills and she was being groomed for that. But she started singing and she's like, "This feels better to me, this makes more sense." So anyway, all of that to say she's had rigorous training in performance and I know that that's played a role in her ability to walk out on stage and be able to be in performance mode. So I've learned that.
One of the things I love about Molly is that she surrounds herself with great musicians, but also people that she feels very connected to. And it's like her family, she needs to feel really surrounded by. It's a tough life being out on the road and traveling and you want to be able to have a nice hang with the people that you're traveling with. So I've learned about surround yourself with excellence, but make sure that it's people that you can sit on a bus with or on a plane or get stuck in an airport and still be able to talk to each other. And just general badassiness. Molly, she was a child actor too, so she's been in the business her whole life and she's a no BS kind of person and she's got a thick skin. So I might have learned a bit of that from her too. And a little bit of potty mouth too.
Leah Roseman:
Do you have advice for younger musicians about touring, how to tour well take care of yourself?
Colleen Allen:
I don't know. I think you have to just go and figure it out. I think to me, the most challenging thing, and it wasn't as bad when I was younger, is just being able to take your instruments and play your own instruments and being able to travel with them. Yeah, I don't know. I figured out a lot of stuff. You just have to go. Say yes. That would be my advice. Just say yes and you'll figure it out. Most of the young people that I know are way better at tuning into their bodies and taking better care of themselves than we ever were. I respect my young colleagues. I've learned lots from them and I think that they're amazing. And I'm happy that everybody's being able to get out there and go back out on the road. I don't do a lot of traveling now for music. A little bit. I've gone out a few times this year. It's always great fun. It's just taking your instruments on planes is really a drag.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Do you find that jazz scene is bouncing back, coming out of the lockdowns in Toronto?
Colleen Allen:
Yes. Yeah, totally. There's a few places that have closed and there's more places that are opening and people are supporting clubs, as far as I can tell. And again, younger players are creating places for them to play. It's so essential in terms of growing as a musician, as being able to be playing with other players and in front of people where there's more at stake. It's a performance, you need to have more together and more experience doing that. So I feel quite optimistic about... In terms of what are people getting paid to do that, most younger players that I know, I mean there's a lot have other jobs. We did too when we were younger. But there seems to be, as there was when I was growing up, there's a really thriving corporate and wedding scene and people are getting paid well to do that, as they should. And if that enables you to do your creative work, then great. You're playing music and you're playing with probably really good musicians and that feels good too.
Leah Roseman:
You had done some Cirque du Soleil shows?
Colleen Allen:
I did. I went to Germany and lived there for a year doing a show, a Cirque de Soleil called Pomp Duck and Circumstance. And it was sort of an unusual Cirque show in that it was a pairing with a German chef. Most of the Cirque shows are in a tent, a theatrical performance in a tent. This was also in a tent, but a smaller one. Those vaudevillian mirror tents all the way around the side red velvet. And people would come and have dinner and there would be animation happening while they were having dinner. And then there'd be four main acts that would happen throughout the evening. And it was very, very cool. Great idea and very life transforming experience for me to go and live in another country and work with other musicians. And the band was a band made up of people from all over the world. And it didn't necessarily work that well right away. It took a while for us to find our common language. Then working with circus performers, wow, and high performance athletes. And all of us navigating this experience together. Was so grateful I had the chance to do that.
Leah Roseman:
Would you have to alter the timing of anything or was it kind of set, it all worked in terms of the charts?
Colleen Allen:
There was some scripted music and then we could play whatever we wanted. And we were all jazz musicians for the most part, improvisers. So it was fun learning a lot of repertoire. And did end up doing a lot of work on my flute and my clarinet there too, because I had the opportunity to. And the German musicians, violinist was from Germany, pianist living in New York, but he's from Germany, and they all had very serious classical training. So there was lots of musicianship that was happening. Yeah, and we got to play music that was challenging and audiences liked it. As long as we were playing music that they didn't seem to mind what we were playing.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I had an opportunity to hear, I think maybe three Cirque shows live in Ottawa over the years, and the music was always really, really high level.
Colleen Allen:
They have scores that are written for specific shows and it's completely integral. It's not an afterthought ever. It's an integral piece of what the tone or the theme or whatever each specific show is. It's just one element of it that they've done really well. It wasn't the case in this show, but usually the musicians are onstage or close to onstage or they're in costume or something, they're embedded in the show. We were embedded in the show, but we were also a small big band. So we were wearing suits and had music stands. It was like we were a band on stage like a Frank Sinatra kind of setting. So we backed up the performers, but we also played behind the scenes as well. Yeah, it was great. And it was really, really cool to get to be a part of a Cirque experience. It's changed, this was quite a long time ago.
But just to watch the level of rigor in terms of watching athletes and how they prepare and train for shows and how safety is taken into consideration but that you'd never know it. Everything is very relaxed and casual. But their safety is paramount. Attention to detail, all of that was really cool. I lived in Hamburg. The show continued on after that, but I came back to Canada after a year. And Hamburg is a gorgeous city. And what a wonderful... I mean this is the thing about being a musician is just being able to have these experiences that I would never have had the chance to do that. I lived a life there for a year, let's just say, and it was good.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Now you've been part of lots of bigger bands like Manteca we were talking about, but your solo CDs with a small ensemble, I really love them. I've listened to them a lot.
Colleen Allen:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
And maybe if you want to talk to them. And is it Torchlight, the second one? Flashlight.
Colleen Allen:
Flashlight, yeah. I have the privilege of working with a lot of great bands and people and at a certain point I've just sort of had enough songs that I've felt like I really wanted to do something with them. So I've done two recordings of my own and I've got enough material probably to do another one. It's just trying to decide how I want to do that because I barely listen to CDs now. I have an external CD player if I have to input any music. I mean we can access it in so many other ways. So I'm just trying to think about how and why I would do another recording. But the first two, I raised the bar on myself by having to take on the production side of it, organizing the musicians and saving the money to be able to do it. So every time I've done it, I've grown as a musician.
The first one, Marc Jordan, great singer, Marc Jordan sang on one of my tunes, which is unexpected. My husband Steven MacKinnon and Marc write together and I asked Marc and Steven if mind if I do this song. And Marc said, "Well, do you want me to sing it?" I'm like, "Sure I want you to sing it. Then I'll just play sax solo and you can be the singer." So that's the one vocal tune. The rest of them are all instrumental. And a couple of my tunes and they're all my arrangements. Then on the second recording, this is the Flashlight recording, it's all standards. I had heard Wayne Shorter talking about a flashlight, always having a flashlight so you can see where you've come from as well as where you're going to, and so this is sort of my homage to some tunes that I've been playing. And I did some arrangements of them. It was not original music, just original arrangements. And again, it was a huge learning curve to start and finish something.
Leah Roseman:
So for your next project, are there things you would do differently to make it easier?
Colleen Allen:
I don't know if there's any way to make it easier. I think it's just being in the process of it. I don't know, this probably makes it harder because I'd have to think about what I'm wearing, but I would do video. I would probably record it live in studio for the recording part of it, but also for the video capture because that that would be almost more important than having the recording is having the video now. So that might be the biggest change for me is just thinking about it having to be... So then now I'm thinking about setting, thinking about what it's going to look like as much as what it's going to sound like.
Leah Roseman:
I was also wondering, especially as an improvising musician, I really do enjoy live recordings of jazz that are out there, if you've just considered just doing a show or a couple shows and just recording?
Colleen Allen:
Yeah, I think it would be great to be able to book three nights somewhere and record three nights and then just use the best of that. And I too like being in a live performing setting as an improviser, there's just something about knowing that it's that moment and that's all. Some of my favorite recordings are live recordings as well. I find, for me, it's just more pressure if it's not live to get it right or perfect. And that just doesn't happen as an improviser ever. If I could be left in the, "Do you want to take another take, another take?" And I would always say yes, because it's like, "Well, maybe it's not there yet." So there's something about a live performance and that's it, it's captured. And that's comfortable for me. I'm a live performer, so that's a comfortable setting for me.
Leah Roseman:
My husband and I acquired, just randomly someone was getting rid of some records and it was, I think, a pristine LP of Louis Armstrong live recording in Italy shortly after the Second World War when he was touring Europe. And you can hear the crowd and there's this crackle in the air and it's a phenomenal recording.
Colleen Allen:
Yeah, well, and just think about that one, how many live performances did he ever do? And that was one moment. And it sparkles and it crackles and it just makes it that much more special too, doesn't it? Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Thinking about the roots of jazz, I was just thinking about Sidney, is it pronounced Bechet?
Colleen Allen:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Because we had an old LP of his that I listened to growing up and that was kind of in my ear as this very different kind of saxophone sound, very vibrated. And obviously, that changed over time. And I wanted to ask you about vibrato because in the jazz violin world, there's this idea where you shouldn't vibrate or should be used very differently in modern jazz violin playing. How is it for reed players?
Colleen Allen:
Well, it's evolved like any of the language has evolved. When you think about Sidney Bechet, he was playing soprano saxophone, so smaller mouthpiece and very fast vibrato. And the horn players were imitating the singers at that time, that sort of vibrato. But that's where that fast vibrato came. And then in the sax section, everybody would be playing in the 1930s, the dance bands, they were all playing with very fast vibrato. And then as the instruments became solo instruments and voice changed and interpretation and stuff, the vibrato has changed as well. On violin for sure, it's an emotional addition to a phrase or a line. It's a tool of phrasing, so it's very personal too. I hear some singers now that have a very fast vibrato, still not as many, and then there's some that use no vibrato. Particularly in a Brazilian style singing. And it's so effective and appropriate for that. So yes, for sure, vibrato has changed and evolved and continues to be a personal tool of expression, I think.
Leah Roseman:
I'm always interested in sort of geeky aspects.
Colleen Allen:
I love that. It was a great question.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, you'd mentioned the challenges of the pandemic and that you'd started having time to do arrangements. And certainly all of us learned a lot. At the beginning of this call, we had some technical problems, which we quickly fixed. But I was saying to you, it'd been so long since I'd had any technical problems, it was a bit of a shock. But at the beginning, when all this happened in 2020, most of us hadn't ever been on Zoom or done a live stream. But I know a lot of your family lives far away. Were they able to tune into some shows you were doing or recordings because of that happening?
Colleen Allen:
Well, thanks to Adrian Cho at Syncspace, yes as a matter of fact. And our bass player, these are sessions that I did with Mark Ferguson, our bass player's family lives on the West Coast as well as my family. So it was so much fun to be able to do those shows and to be able to just have our families. It's not very often that they get to hear me play, certainly in a performance setting. So that was very, very special. And I think that also it ignited or inspired a lot of us to get our home systems together and to be able to do more live recording. And I'm recording something this afternoon to send to a friend who's going to put it on his track. Now we're set up to do it. I mean I do have live-in tech support, which I don't take for granted. But I think we've all embraced it now and that maybe that's another one of the benefits of how we spent our time is figuring out some of the technology.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, actually I talked to Diane Nalini, Adrian's wife is featured on the series. And that was the first interview I actually recorded over the platform we're using right now, Riverside, where you record each side separately. And anyway, we discussed Syncspace quite a lot on there. But for people who haven't heard that episode yet, Adrian Cho developed this platform where musicians can play in real time together without much of a lag at all. So when you were performing with Mark, he was in Ottawa and you were in Toronto, which is 500 kilometers apart, in real time with people listening, as opposed to most videos people see online where it looks like people are playing together, but of course it's done separately. And some audience members don't realize that, they think people are actually playing together when those videos are made.
Colleen Allen:
Right, yeah. And it was very interesting for us non-orchestral players. So we had a drummer from Toronto, a bass player in Toronto and we were in our separate homes, and then Mark in Ottawa. Adrian sort of described, because there's a little bit of a lag, but not significant enough to make it not work. But he said it's sort of like you're either six feet away from somebody in an orchestra or maybe you're 12 feet away from the violin section or you're behind a - or whatever. And to be able to navigate what that is in an orchestra. So there's a certain level of just sort of, again, it's the listening. You're listening and adapting. Yeah, it's been fun every time we've done it. I've really enjoyed. I don't get to play with Mark very often and he's a special guy and it's just so much fun to be able to do that together.
Leah Roseman:
Have you done much teaching online?
Colleen Allen:
No, I have not. So 2020, I finished the school year online like everybody did and then I stopped teaching after that. I guess you're teaching online, are you?
Leah Roseman:
I don't now. If there's people studying with me who aren't in Ottawa, which is more occasional, I will teach them online. So I've developed lots of ways to do it. But I taught online for a very long time. At least a year or something.
Colleen Allen:
Right. Yeah. It felt for me, in terms of my role as a teacher, I feel like it just felt like the opportunity to step back was there and I've got some young colleagues who are very capable and looking for an opportunity to do that. I felt like it was a good time for me to step back from teaching and let them take over. And now I've got more time, it's all about me now.
Leah Roseman:
That's good.
Colleen Allen:
I feel like I've done my service and I loved and I learned so much teaching. Yeah, now I feel like I have other things, pursuits, musical pursuits of my own that I have time for that I didn't before. So I feel grateful for that.
Leah Roseman:
I think that when we weren't able to perform for so long, I'm sure a lot of performing artists just really had to think what's really important to you and what do you want to be doing? Or when you're able to perform again, what's going to be the most important thing? Did it help you reassess your priorities more than just eliminating teaching in terms of the kind of project you want to do?
Colleen Allen:
Oh, excellent question. Yes. Yes in terms of what I want to be doing and what I don't want to be doing. And letting go of some things that just don't fit anymore and having, in a way, permission to do it. Because the grand pause as my friend George Koller calls it, the grand pause of COVID, and chance to reset, and I have. And one of the other things that I was able to do is it was really good for me for working on technique on my flute and my clarinet, and not being good at just playing bar 64 to 68 of this piece and this element or this show, subbing into a show or something and I know this much music. So I really went back to basic flute and clarinet daily work and it's been fantastic. I love the flute and the clarinet. And my clarinet, her name is Hillary and she's complicated but beautiful. They deserve time to honor the sound and the technique of the instrument. So that was another good thing for me to have time to do that.
Leah Roseman:
This Is a big ask, but would you be willing to play either your flute or clarinet?
Colleen Allen:
What do I have? Okay, let me just see. I'll grab my flute. Okay. Okay. Just have to keep in mind that I just got back from Kamloops and I haven't played my flute in a couple weeks because I was out there helping my mom. So let's see what happens. Hey, remember me? We were talking about playing together. All right, I'll play a little jazz flute.
Little Moe Koffman for you. Honestly, I've been working on getting a more legit tone, but that's my 1970s disco flute sound, without doing a good warmup.
Leah Roseman:
Did you hear him live back in the day?
Colleen Allen:
I did. In fact, Manteca, you'll talk to Matt about this when you talk to Matt, just finished doing a project called The Offspring Project, and Moe Koffman's grandson, Jake Koffman played with us and played a few tunes with us. And he is now doing a Moe Koffman, Bernie Senensky, who played with Moe, a pianist, great jazz pianist, who played with Moe, it's a Moe Koffman tribute show, and Jake is playing flute and clarinet in that. And he sounds fantastic. So yes, of course I did go and see Moe and the Cats, all the Cats. And they were such great musicians and they were working all the time and in the studio all day. And then they were playing at George's Spaghetti House at night and it was a very rich time for music in Toronto, for sure that time.
Leah Roseman:
And there was so much more radio opportunities, I think.
Colleen Allen:
Yeah, variety shows, CBC variety shows and radio programming and composition, just recording commercials in the studio constantly. And then the Boss Brass, of course, Moe was the lead alto player in the band. And just stunning virtuosity.
Leah Roseman:
One thing I ran across is that you had collaborated a little bit with Oliver Schroer.
Colleen Allen:
Do you know Oliver? Did you know him?
Leah Roseman:
I think one of the first dates I went on with my husband was to go hear him live in Ottawa, and it was really memorable. And then he got sick and it was so sad. But we had a few of his recordings.
Colleen Allen:
Yeah, so I played in the Stewed Tomatoes and I met him through folk circles. I work with a vocalist songwriter, composer, singer, David Sereda, and I think I met Oliver playing with him at a festival. And Oliver was and continues to be a remarkable musician and human being and very influential mentor to other fiddle players. He started a project in Smithers, BC. He moved out there and he started a project called The Twisted String, and probably about 25 young musicians came out of that. And continue to be in working. And just the kind of love and training and learning by ear, teaching by rote this really complex music but from this place of love and generosity.
Oliver was a remarkable human. And I always thought of him, he was sort of like the sun, everything kind of revolves around Oliver. He had a great capacity, prolific composer and really left of center in terms of the instrument, I think in terms of the violin, the fiddle, has solo recordings. He walked the Camino Trail and stopped in every church along the way and recorded himself playing. It's just profound. And I treasure my experiences getting to play with him. Very special.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I think I remember reading for that... I think I have that recording, that he didn't want the weight of a case, so he had his violin wrapped in a cloth or something for that trek.
Colleen Allen:
I know. To take it in just, to be able to actually do that trek and then the kind of mind and body state that you have to be in to be able to do it, but then to think to bring your violin and whatever, however he recorded it, that was a very Oliver thing to do.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about your association with Soulpepper Theater. What kind of work did you do with them?
Colleen Allen:
I worked with them as a musician for hire several times, and then I was a resident artist with them for about five years. And in that capacity we were tasked with throwing ideas out. We ended up doing some cabaret programming. And eventually through the work that they were doing as a collective, came up with this really great music and theater concept for shows. It's music with theater, so music, story, contextualizing, dramatizing and integrating with music. Really, really cool. I know there's other companies that are doing that now because it's so interesting.
Yeah, so it involved either music directing, playing in a band, and creating ideas around how we can integrate music more into... And then some mentoring. I did work with some of the students doing music specific stuff as well. Yeah, that's where I learned about being a better leader, about taking leadership and about having it thrust upon one and rising to the occasion and being entrusted, tasked with a lot of creative things that I hadn't had the opportunity to explore that side of my work. And they trusted me with things. I learned a lot, and feel like I contributed too. It was great. Wonderful.
Leah Roseman:
We started this conversation talking about mentorship, and to close out I was just thinking back when you were in Gloucester High School, could you have pictured the kind of interesting diversity you've had in your career so far, what that would've looked like? Would that have been in your consciousness, the possibilities?
Colleen Allen:
That's a good question. I don't know if I had that level of self-awareness at that time. I was pretty freaked out most of the time. Like I say, I have a 24-year-old daughter, her friends and all of my younger colleagues, they just seem to be so much more together than I ever was. I just spent most of my time going, "What the?" I really was in the moment. I think what I do remember, when I felt like my direction was affirmed, like I might be going in the right direction, I had some moments where I felt like I was going to explode if I didn't get to play a certain thing that I heard, or I felt like so much desire, like a craving that, "I don't know what it is about this piece of music, but I have to play it or I have to listen to it a hundred times. And to try and understand..."
I remember having those feelings in terms of me being able to... I don't know what it looked like. I just know what it felt like on the inside. I had no concept of how I would do that in any larger picture. So yeah, I don't know if that answers the question.
Leah Roseman:
That brings me back to my student days too, that longing. Certain music that you just fell in love with. But it's funny, one of my daughters is also 24, and is in a different field, but a creative field. And I see just their education and the way they think about themselves, it's very different. They're really encouraged to think about their goals in a practical way. And the whole idea of mentorship is something that's actually talked about, an entrepreneurial spirit, which you need in any kind of creative work, I think.
Colleen Allen:
Isn't that fantastic? That's what's supposed to happen. That's evolution. We're supposed to improve upon. And plus, I think too, obviously I probably have lots of friends who have kids and they've grown up with parents who are musicians or in creative fields. And I think that there's a certain skill set that comes from watching your parents strive. We're in a striving career and there's no arriving. It's a striving. And my daughter too, she's really involved in music and has a lot of friends there, she's a singer songwriter, but her career is very different than that at this point anyway. And I feel like that feels successful too. She's choosing to have music be a significant part of her life, but not necessarily how she generates income. And that feels fantastic for now.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Well, one thing that keeps coming up as I talk to more and more musicians is what does it mean to be a musician or, quote "professional musician"? It means a lot of things, right?
Colleen Allen:
It does. It's a large, honorable... It's a skillset and an honorable career. It's fraught, there's lots of challenges. But at the end of the day, we're doing something that we are deeply invested in and that feels meaningful. It's a life full of meaning, ups and downs.
Leah Roseman:
Well, thanks so much, Colleen, for sharing your perspectives and your music today. I really appreciate it.
Colleen Allen:
Thank you, Leah. Thank you for having me. And your questions are just deep and well thought, and I appreciate you looking into the things that I've done. I feel honored that you took the time to do that. Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
Of course.
I so enjoyed learning about Colleen's varied career and music making, and loved hearing about her approaches to creativity as well as staying centered and healthy. Thanks for following this series. Please share this episode with your friends. Have a great week.
