E4 S1 Patty Chan Transcript, Links for Podcast and Video
Leah Roseman:
Hi, welcome to episode four of Conversations with Leah. Today I have an erhu player, teacher, innovator, Patty Chan. Hi.
Patty Chan:
Hi.
Leah Roseman:
So we met in 2014. It was a collaboration with Orkidstra. Do you remember that?
Patty Chan:
Yes. It's seems like a long time ago, but also very recent at the same time. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I was in a string quartet and you were the soloist and it was just a wonderful merging. And the kids were playing. And so you wrote a book 10 years ago.
Patty Chan:
Yes.
Leah Roseman:
Bridging The Gap, right? Playing erhu: Bridging The Gap. Can you talk about that?
Patty Chan:
Well, it's an instruction book for erhu players and for beginner erhu players. And it was the first book that was written in English and so it teaches both staff notation and also Jianpu notation.
Leah Roseman:
And I read a little bit about Jianpu notation, but I'm sure a lot of people don't know what that is.
Patty Chan:
Okay, Jianpu notation is a simplified numbered notation, so that is predominantly what was being used in China, right now even. And it was actually brought into China supposedly in the 1800s or so by French missionaries who wanted to teach a simple system of teaching people how to sing hymns. And so it's a numbered notation, so one is do two is re, and it goes on. And is a movable do system, too.
Leah Roseman:
So is most Chinese music, does it keep to the one key? So that works pretty well?
Patty Chan:
No, we change keys.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Patty Chan:
And so every time the key changes, then the do moves to a different place.
Leah Roseman:
Wow.
Patty Chan:
Yeah, there's an adjustment, but it's all based on the major scale. So it's like G key, so G is do or G is one. And then you count up that way and the tones and semitones are based on the major scale. So it's not too difficult.
Leah Roseman:
And the rhythms are also notated mathematically, right? And very different than traditional Western notation?
Patty Chan:
Actually, you can see the relationship when you see them side by side. So if you have eighth notes and they're connected by a beam on top, you have one line underneath the two numbers and that would be a pair of eighth notes. And so you have a four beat note, a whole note, you would write the number or the degree of that note and then three dashes afterwards. So you count four beats. So the note and then two, three, four. So there's some things that are quite close. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I've always been curious about Chinese bowed instruments because I'm a violinist. So they're kind of similar, but super different. And the first time I think I heard one, I might have heard George Gao play with the National Arts and Orchestra before that and I believe you studied with him.
Patty Chan:
Yes, he was my teacher.
Leah Roseman:
Wow. Okay, but I went to China in 2003. Actually, one of our children is adopted from China. So we went to the Temple of Heaven, big park, where people just do all kinds of really fun stuff. And there was a corner where all these people were playing the erhu. And they were just super loud and all in their corner playing different tunes. It was really chaotic and wonderful. And in general I just felt like maybe in that culture people are less embarrassed about doing stuff in public. I can't imagine most Canadians just feeling free to practice their dancing or learning an instrument in a public like that.
Patty Chan:
I think, yes, it's very commonplace practice in China that you have people of all ages. They go to the parks and then they go and they do group dancing. They do a lot of Chinese opera music and they do pop music. It's a place where they all socialize and also enjoy their outdoors.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I had a friend who was living there for many years and she said it was just normal at a dinner party that you'd ask your friends to sing. People were very open about that.
Patty Chan:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
That's a really wonderful thing. So I have so many questions for you, but I'd love to hear some music and I'm sure people are very curious.
Patty Chan:
Okay. So I'll start off, I'll play a piece for erhu. And I'll show you what the erhu looks like and talk a little bit about that before I play.
Leah Roseman:
Great, thank you.
Leah Roseman:
(silence)
Patty Chan:
So the erhu is part of the huqin family or the bowed string family in the Chinese orchestra. So this is what it looks like and this is the sound box. So starting on the top, these are the two tuning pegs and it's a D string. This is the D string, this is the A string. These are little fine tuners that's actually from violins and there's two strings. This is called the qianjin. So you don't press on the string above the qianjin, you press below. And this is actually adjustable to your hand size. So for little children we usually move this down and then their fingers can be placed closer together to play. The bow is trapped between the two strings, so we never lose our bow. And the bow is made out of bamboo on this side and then just horsetail hair on the inside.
Patty Chan:
I call this the frog, as well, and there's the tip of the bow. And the sound comes out from the back of the instrument. And the sound box is usually covered in python snake skin, but mine is synthetic skin. I have some other instruments over there that are python snake skin, though. So this is eco-friendly. I can take it with me when I travel. It's a lot easier. And as you can see, there's a tiny little bridge there that separates the two strings and then this is a damper that helps prevent any harsh sounds. I'll just sit back here so you can see a little bit better. So when I press on strings, I press on both strings at the same time. And unlike the violin, there's no fingerboard. So I have to be really careful how hard I press the strings because it can go out of tune if I press a little bit too hard. So you can hear the pitch just change, even though I'm at the same position.
Patty Chan:
So I'm going to just play a short melody. It's called Green Island Serenade. And this is a 1950s piece that I think it was composed for film.
Leah Roseman:
Wow, that was so beautiful. Thank you.
Patty Chan:
Thank you. So this is the erhu. I'll put it away.
Patty Chan:
(silence)
Patty Chan:
Would you like me to go to the other instruments, too?
Leah Roseman:
Very much. Yeah, show us the family.
Patty Chan:
Okay.
Leah Roseman:
So if any of you are listening to the podcast version of this, you can go back later and check out the video version.
Patty Chan:
Okay, so this is called a gaohu. And, as you can see, it's quite similar to the erhu. It still has two strings. The sound box is a little bit different. It's circular and this is played predominantly in southern provinces of China. And it was played mostly with Cantonese opera and it's also used in Chinese orchestras for the higher registers. So this would be the first violin. The erhu is usually the second violin. Okay, so, again, the sound comes out of the back and there's two versions. So this is a more contemporary version. It's used more in orchestras. So the traditional Cantonese opera version, you play it between your legs. You don't play it with the instrument on the lap. And so the legs actually adjust with the timbre. It mutes the instrument sometimes and it lets you control how the sound is released because, again, the sound comes out of the back. So sometimes your leg is covering this part, so it changes the timbre a bit. To play, this is tuned to G and D. And this is actually real python snake skin. And so this is what it sounds like.
Patty Chan:
Okay, so you can hear how the sound, it's higher pitched than the erhu. And it's also brighter in the higher register because erhu, as you get higher, generally the sound gets weaker and weaker towards the higher pitch. So that's why this is used for the higher pitch notes.
Leah Roseman:
I have a couple of questions.
Patty Chan:
Sure.
Leah Roseman:
So with the very popular Butterfly Lovers' Violin Concerto, the ornaments are notated.
Patty Chan:
Yes.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, so those ornaments you're playing, I imagine sometimes it's improvised, but sometimes are they notated in tunes?
Patty Chan:
Yes, they are. It depends on the composer and it depends on your teacher as well as to how the ornaments are added. And so from each different region in China they have different types of ornamentation. So you really have to study the certain regions and how they sing because all the ornamentation comes from folk songs as well. So it imitates the voice, it imitates how people sing. And that is affected by the dialect and their own customs.
Leah Roseman:
And the other question I was wondering about, so in Chinese opera I've heard with a lot of vibrato to really carry the sound. So in Western European music, as far as we know, vibrato developed later, especially with violin playing. It wasn't used that much before, but do we know with traditional Chinese instruments was a vibrato used for a long time?
Patty Chan:
For opera, actually the type of singing is not quite vibrato. It undulates a lot, but it's not really a vibrato. It's more like ornamentation. The sound is actually projected very, very strongly. And so what you think is vibrato is actually a note that there's ornamentation added to it after its sung.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Patty Chan:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
But when you're using traditional vibrato, it looks very similar to what I would do on violin.
Patty Chan:
Yeah, and we've always pretty much had vibrato, but there's different types of vibrato, as well, for the Chinese instrument because for the erhu, because we don't have a fingerboard, there's something called a pressure vibrato. Which is really, really interesting because it actually makes it sound more like a human voice in that you can have a depth to the vibrato that can express intense emotion, so sobbing, crying. And so erhu actually is really well known for crying and really, really sad pieces. I'll show you that later, too.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, so you have other ... Sorry, I interrupted your wonderful...
Patty Chan:
No, that's okay. I can show you the pressure vibrato later with the erhu as well.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Why don't you show us now?
Patty Chan:
Okay.
Patty Chan:
Okay!
Patty Chan:
So the pressure vibrato, it's, again, pressing really hard on the string. And you can see if I press a little bit harder, I don't know if you noticed, but the string can move.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Patty Chan:
There's a piece called the River of Sorrow, which I love. And it has a lot of the pressure vibrato in it. Let's see. Okay, so you hear the ...
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Patty Chan:
Yeah, that's the pressure vibrato.
Leah Roseman:
You play so expressively. I could listen to that all day. It's really beautiful.
Patty Chan:
Thank you. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Do you have more instruments to show us before I have more questions?
Patty Chan:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Patty Chan:
A few more.
Leah Roseman:
Great !
Patty Chan:
Great. So this is a bigger version. So this used a bigger snake. This is the zhonghu, which is like the viola of the western orchestra. And like all the other huqin instruments, it has two strings, bow in between. Same concept, but this was actually created for the orchestra. So I don't know if you realize, but the Chinese orchestra is very young. The Chinese orchestra is only about 100 years old and so this instrument wasn't made until the 1940s or so. And it was created maybe even later. It was created for the Chinese orchestra to fill in the gap between the low and the higher instruments. And so there's not actually that many solo pieces written for this instrument because it's usually used to support the orchestra. So it sounds this low. So it's the G and D of the violin, actually.
Patty Chan:
So that's what this sounds like. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
That's so beautiful, but I think any violists listening will agree, viola's been around for 500 years or more, but they don't have much solo music written, but I think it's mostly to do with as a timbre because it doesn't project as well.
Patty Chan:
Right. And it's really just the first couple of octaves that you can get good sound out of it and then, again, it just dies away in sound volume and also the quality. So the strongest really is within the first position where you have the strongest notes.
Leah Roseman:
So now I imagine we have a cello-like instrument?
Patty Chan:
I don't own one, unfortunately, but in the Chinese orchestra actually a lot of orchestras use cellos and double basses because we haven't quite so far ... I mean, there's still debate. We haven't really found something that matches the Chinese orchestra that well and we just love the cello and double bass and they're doing so well, but I think the Hong Kong Chinese orchestra have developed new instruments that are more like the huqin family. They do have four strings, but I think instead of python snake skin they use wood. And so they're trying to develop and create a sound that they think is appropriate for the Chinese orchestra.
Leah Roseman:
Wow.
Patty Chan:
Actually, my last instrument is from the huqin family, but it's from the northern side of China. And it's quite different from these instruments, so I'll just show you that one.
Leah Roseman:
Fantastic. Thank you so much.
Patty Chan:
It's a super, super loud instrument. This is from Northern China and they use it in operas, little small ensembles type of music. And also they use this in folky type of pieces when composers want to add a folk style to their composition in the Chinese orchestra. And usually it really comes up above all the other bowed string instruments. So this is called the banhu and, again, it has two tuning pegs. They have actually different ranges as well. So this one is tuned to D and A, but they have some that are tuned a little bit lower, A to E. And that one is just another. It sounds very similar to this. It's the alto one, which this is the soprano one. And the interesting thing is it's not snake skin. And ban actually means wood, like a piece of wood. And so this is a piece of wood. It has the same bridge and then there's the opening at the back. The interesting thing is would you know what this part is made out of?
Leah Roseman:
No idea.
Patty Chan:
It's made out of a coconut shell.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Patty Chan:
Yeah, so it's different from the other sound boxes, which are just made from wood. So they use a coconut shell for this. And so it has a surprisingly loud sound. And so I have to be careful with my neighbors, but, to me, it's a very happy, happy instrument and very joyful. And it's usually played with a lot of ornamentation as well. So I'll just play. So those that's the D and A.
Patty Chan:
So that's what this instrument sounds like.
Leah Roseman:
Wonderful. Yeah.
Patty Chan:
I think it woke everybody up.
Leah Roseman:
But coconuts wouldn't grow in Northern China. They must bring them up there to make that.
Patty Chan:
For some reason they have coconuts there.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Patty Chan:
Yeah, and, actually, they also have coconuts, of course, in the southern parts of China, where they have developed an instrument called the yehu and they do use a coconut shell, but they use a sea shell for the bridge. And that instrument actually is lower in pitch and also more mellow. So I think somehow it traveled up to the north, but then they changed the sound quality that comes out of the instrument. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Wonderful. Do you want to put that down?
Patty Chan:
Sure. Okay.
Leah Roseman:
So I wanted to talk, you lead the Toronto Chinese Orchestra.
Patty Chan:
Yes. The Toronto Chinese Orchestra has been around actually since 1993 and that's when it started. And I joined at that time. And so I've over the years we've played mostly traditional music and it really depended on the demographics of the people as well. And so as time went by, it was actually the pivotal year was 2008 when I went to Hong Kong with some other members of the orchestra. And it was a Chinese orchestra music festival and it was the first one that I think was international. And so going there, it was my first time seeing all the different Chinese orchestras from different areas and that they were all performing their music. And I was just astounded by, wow, this is what it should be or this is what it can be. And so after that, I came back. I brought music back and I wanted to make changes here and see what our potential could be.
Patty Chan:
Initially, it was bringing music back from Asia and trying to play the music here, but then gradually I thought we're in Canada. Why not try to encourage Canadian composers to write for these instruments and for the orchestra and see how we can develop our own identity? And I think that has possibly captured the attention of some people in China and Asia where they think you have your own music. Well, that's interesting. Let's hear what the music is like. And so I think that's really important for us to continue developing in North America, not just always rely on Asia. I've become the music director and so I've been working hard trying to find ways of doing these things.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. If anyone's listening who lives in Toronto and is interested in joining, I'll have links to all Patty's things in the description of the video and the podcast. So is it mostly adults in the Toronto Chinese Orchestra or is it a mixture?
Patty Chan:
It's a mixture. So I wanted to actually meet all the needs of the community, basically, and so we formed a training orchestra. So one is a youth, actually, training orchestra and the other one is a community training orchestra, which is for adults and seniors that they've learned how to play, but they want to play together. And so that's training them how to read music and play together as an ensemble, follow a conductor, all those things. And we also have the main orchestra, which is actually mostly young adults. So we have people in university, people that have just graduated. So many people are in their 20s. I'm one of the old guys there, so it's really interesting how people in high school, in their 20s and 30s, they're all playing together in this ensemble mostly.
Leah Roseman:
Do you find with people playing at that level that they have experience with different instruments before or did some of them just start on these instruments?
Patty Chan:
Some have just started on those instruments. Some had learned these instruments prior in Taiwan or China and some have learned here. For the training ensembles, most of them have learned here. So in the community classes or they found teachers here and they studied here, but in our orchestra we have a mix of local born Chinese. So they learned here and then we have some immigrants from China, Taiwan, et cetera, Singapore. And we have some non-Chinese as well.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And you also run the Center for Music Innovation?
Patty Chan:
That's right. So that's a recent project of mine, where I want to actually bridge the gap in another way, bring Chinese videos of orchestras, like Chinese orchestras in Taiwan mostly. They have these really, really high quality videos and I found that nobody can access them if they don't read Chinese. And so I thought it was really important to translate these videos into English. The program notes, the composer, the performers, and make it accessible to English readers. So it's similar to my book, where it's bringing accessibility to English readers. And then this way they can listen and watch these recordings and also understand the program notes and understand how the composer thought and their reason for writing the piece and everything.
Leah Roseman:
That's really, really great. So I'm curious, during the pandemic have you been teaching online?
Patty Chan:
Yes. I found that a lot of people, because they're stuck at home, some people have decided I want to learn a musical instrument. And so, actually, my online number of students has really grown. I have students from all over the States, some in Canada, I've had some from Europe, and they're interested in learning the erhu.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Were some of them string, like violin or cellists before?
Patty Chan:
A couple were violinists before. There's a harp player, there's other guitar players, there's all different backgrounds. It's really interesting.
Leah Roseman:
Well, I think for a lot of us during this time of the pandemic, just I think music has been such a solace and an escape, too, from the situation. Have you been writing any music?
Patty Chan:
I've been arranging some music for my group classes. Writing any music recently, no. It's mostly arranging so that my group classes, they can ... We meet regularly and so I create almost like a first erhu part, second erhu part. And they would practice their parts and then they would try to put it together for a video, so things like that.
Leah Roseman:
I've seen quite a few of your wonderful YouTube videos and they're just so beautifully done and just such detail, just showing everything so clearly. And also, you played a video game theme because one of your followers had requested that. I thought that was really neat.
Patty Chan:
Right, so that keeps me busy. Yes, but it's been a lot of fun to do that. And I think it's a great way to make the music relevant. It's something that people recognize and then they think I can play that now on this new instrument.
Leah Roseman:
Do you ever play any Western music? I know it's limiting because of just two strings, but ...
Patty Chan:
I have done some Western music, but not as much. I think there's a video I've done with Marjolaine for a Western piece. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And I was curious about just your practice routine. Do you have certain warmups you like to do or any sort of technical exercises you go to every day that center your technique?
Patty Chan:
Definitely, it's the scales. The scales and arpeggios. And there's a lot of studies also that are written. There are traditional studies and then actually they've taken some violin studies and they've changed it. So it's all for erhu and it's really interesting because you ... Let me just see. I have these two volumes of books and these are all violin studies. So we have Kreutzer.
Leah Roseman:
Really? Wow.
Patty Chan:
Mazas! So these are all written for erhu. It's been changed for erhu, so there's no G string and it's been adjusted for that.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Patty Chan:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
But many notes. I'm impressed. That must be so hard.
Patty Chan:
Yes, it's very hard.
Leah Roseman:
Do you have a concept of positions in terms of shifting up and down strings?
Patty Chan:
Yeah, so we do have to practice. There's technique books. This is from the Shanghai Conservatory. And so basically they have all the scales and fingerings and chromatic scales, everything. This is, as you notice, it's all in staff notation. So there is a transition to staff notation because composers, many are western trained and nobody writes in jianpu notation anymore as a composer because it's just awkward. And so it's forcing a lot of musicians to have to learn staff notation in order to play new music. Otherwise, you're just playing old music. So I'm encouraging my students to read staff notation as well.
Leah Roseman:
And in your orchestra, is it staff notation mostly?
Patty Chan:
Well, the funny story is for the past over 20 years I've been transcribing all the notes from staff to numbered or the jianpu notation. And that was so time consuming because it was for all the parts that required it. And so finally it was during the pandemic. I said this is a good time for everybody to learn how to read staff notation. And so I taught them online. I taught people how to read the staff notation. And so they're able to transcribe themselves if they need to. Otherwise, they will learn how to play in staff notation and be flexible, so I don't want to do it anymore. It takes so much time. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And just finally, I was curious if you had any thoughts on teaching adults versus children because I find there's a pretty big difference.
Patty Chan:
There's a huge difference. The adults I find, I mean, they're very self motivated. They have a goal usually and then they go towards it. And they can understand concepts much more easily than children. I think for children, I find it's a little bit more challenging to keep them motivated and excited to practice. And so a lot of the times I'll be searching for music that they can relate to in order to make it more interesting. So aside from all the studies and exam pieces, I would arrange music again for them that they would recognize. And so they would be happy to pick up their instrument and play or try to play that piece.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And I noticed in the local Kiwanis Music Festival here in Ottawa, they now have a Chinese instrument category.
Patty Chan:
Yes, I was the adjudicator earlier.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Patty Chan:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I'm so happy to see that, that that was there.
Patty Chan:
Yes, I was, too. It's really exciting and it's really encouraging to see young kids learning these instruments. There's also the central conservatory music examinations that happen across Canada here. And the Toronto Chinese Orchestra is managing the Toronto area and then there's somebody else managing the Ottawa area for these examinations. And it's been growing. Yeah, there's more and more interest in the young people and older people learning these instruments and taking the exams.
Leah Roseman:
Well, you're such an inspiring performer and educator and innovator. It's just been wonderful to talk to you today. Thank you so much.
Patty Chan:
Thank you for having me.Photo credit: SG Won
