Raphael Weinroth-Browne Part 1
Leah Roseman:
Raphael Weinroth-Browne is an internationally renowned Canadian cellist, multi-instrumentalist, and composer. He merges his classical cello training with a love of progressive metal and Middle Eastern music, and has formed several acclaimed ensembles, including The Visit, Musk Ox, and Kamancello, this duo with a previous guest to this podcast, kamancheh player, Shahriyar Jamshidi. Raphael has been touring with the Norwegian progressive band, Leprous, since 2017 and has appeared on over 150 studio albums. In 2020, he released his first solo album, Worlds Within. Raph is a very thoughtful and articulate person, and this conversation touched on many interesting topics. In part one, you'll get to hear him demonstrate and talk about the first part of Worlds Within and hear about his career as a studio musician and his experiences touring with Leprous. He shares his thoughts about knowing yourself, being creative, connecting with your audience, and balancing your life and expectations of yourself. Part two of this episode is the next release in this podcast and video series and everything is linked in the description. Time stamps are included in the description. Hey, Raphael Weinroth-Browne, thanks for joining me.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Leah Roseman:
I meant to ask you. I know a lot of people call you Raph. Is that okay?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Of course.
Leah Roseman:
Your recent solo album, Worlds Within, the first version you wrote pre-pandemic, I realized.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I was thinking about that because your fans, people ascribe meaning, and I've talked about this with other of my guests they'll be like, "Oh, this is about." In this case, maybe they feel like it's about the isolation of the pandemic, or whatever meaning they have, especially, since there's no words, but I was thinking about that, and then you redid it as the live version, which is different, but I really enjoyed that. I was just thinking about that off the bat how we're still sitting in this pandemic, but it's better than it was, for sure, 2-1/2 years ago.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Definitely.
Leah Roseman:
Can you talk about what that was like for you? Well, if you want to talk about the album first?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Well, the album had its initial seeds I would say as early as 2017. I was really experimenting with ideas at that point. I didn't really know what they were going to turn into, but I was interested in the material that I was creating. There was a set of ideas in a certain cello tuning it was like an alternate tuning. It was a bit reminiscent of David Darling, who I'm a big fan of, and he's a big influence on my cello playing, or composing style. There was this suite of ideas, and they weren't really connected at that point, but I thought they were all interesting and they were evocative. I wanted to explore that more and I wasn't sure what the form would be the way that they would all be chained together.
Initially I thought, "It will be a long piece, maybe a variation set with these short movements." And then every time that I dove back into the material to try and finalize parts these new branches would grow, and these new variations would emerge based on the original core idea. So it's very much in that way a variation set, Passacaglia, this type of thing. It uses the same harmonic base, but then each iteration is a little bit different and it's got its own personality.
It was probably towards summer 2018, I had this collection of voice memos on my phone of these different looped improvisations. And so I was really just going for it off the cuff, and composing in real-time, and just capturing the spontaneous spirit of that, and then storing it for later, but I had a sense at that point that it would be an album, and that there would be these multiple movements and that there would be these bookends, Unending I and II, which is the same piece. The bassline is different, but the rest of the material is quite similar and the form is quite similar, so those were the A and B parts on either end of it.
And then I basically spent a bunch of time trying to figure out how the other parts would flow together. And it was just this thing that I uncovered more than anything made sense to me over time. I had been touring a lot in 2018 with Leprous. At the end of that year, I really wanted to get back to working on some of my own stuff and get something down because I knew I was away so much I really wanted to capture that. And so I booked the studio for a few consecutive days. It was December after I'd been on tour almost the entire fall. And so I just went in there and basically started laying down the bed tracks of what was going to be Worlds Within.
I didn't go in with a completely fleshed out idea with all of the parts 100% worked out, which one could do. You could score it out and really demo all the details, but there were even parts that I was coming up with really just a couple weeks before going into the studio these new things that were emerging. I was allowing it to be something really fresh and open-ended. I think, also, that was part of what made it interesting was that I was approaching it from a place of spontaneity and still feeling like I was in the spirit of that music and that it was exciting to me, and not something that I just had rehearsed to death and that I had to record. That's how it started.
And then, basically, over the course of 2019, very sporadically, I went to the studio and gradually completed bits and pieces. There were certain things that I worked out more after the bed tracks had been recorded. There's a lot of solos and melodic lines that weren't part of the original composition that I thought would tie the whole thing together, and create this narrating voice so that it wasn't just this architecture of loops, and little bits and pieces, and just motifs all the time, but also that there was something more overarching that would tell the story, and link all the parts together. In terms of the composition of the original album that would be it in a nutshell. I think that it all came out very intuitively in a way.
And then afterwards I was discovering what it was a little bit. Sometimes when you complete something and you stand back from it, you realize what it is. And it was very much that way for me, which actually made it more fascinating to delve back into it as a live record and to play it live a lot. Actually, I remember my first time performing the work live, which was the CD release at the NAC Fourth Stage in January of 2020. It was a trip. I realized, "Whoa, okay, I really like playing this and I've never played anything that quite satisfied me in this way." And so then it made me excited to keep performing the material and it's really evolved ever since. I haven't gotten too tired of it yet.
Leah Roseman:
So you record there's a studio in Luskville, there's a big barn. Is that the place?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
It's basically just a barn and we brought some gear in. My friend, Dean Watson, who's an Ottawa based producer and engineer and we've worked together for probably 14 years now on various projects he had, actually, a flood in his basement in 2019, but he had a friend who was living in Luskville who had this space on his property, basically. He had mentioned to me, "Oh, we might be able to use this building to record in." And I thought, "Yeah, why don't we do it?" It's got wood paneling and high ceilings. We had all these projects we needed to work on. There were a lot of deadlines.
Actually, part of Worlds Within was done there just a few bits and pieces here and there, some overdubs and some solos, but, of course, the entire live record was shot and recorded in that space, along with a lot of other things, actually, during the pandemic. It was a really good thing to have during that period in the lockdowns and stuff, when we couldn't use rehearsal studios even. There are all these rules about going into a facility and making anything. So I was able to go in there with my guys, with Dean and Andrew who was doing the videos, and basically complete that whole project during the lockdown period and make something of it.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Something beautiful. Your videos are very beautiful, too.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
I'm glad you like them.
Leah Roseman:
And you have really high production values and it seems something you really value that you've put something into.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Definitely.
Leah Roseman:
I don't know if a lot of young artists definitely do that. Unless it's provided to them they don't go out of their way to make that happen.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
It depends on the artist and it depends on the scene that you're part of, too. The scene that I'm in is very aesthetically driven. I think album covers are really important, too. Prog and metal bands you see the type of artwork, and it, usually, I would say really enhances the actual audio, the disc itself, or whatever. So when you get the package, if you're getting a vinyl, or what have you, then it's this extra thing. You got the gold foil text and the nice inlays, and everything. To me, the visual aesthetics are really important because I also have a lot of visual associations that come to mind from the music. I think that you can play great, and you can even look really cool when you play, but if you don't have someone able to capture that with the right eye, and also to be able to move with you, then it doesn't capture the energy, which I think is super important because a video should entice people to want to see that artist live.
I think that the live stage is still this place where the old traditions still exist where the technology has disrupted music in so many different ways and the way we consume it, and the degree that we relate to it, but people still get the goosebumps and get blown away at a live show in the same way that they always have. I think that a show can really change one's perspective on an artist, or really open them up to what that artist can offer. So it's very important to get people interested in that. And now, actually, we use the internet and these little tidbits to make people interested in seeing shows and committing to that real-time experience. The videos have always been important and they've always been a way for me to disseminate my material, and anything that I've composed to make it accessible to people very easily and to show it in proper quality.
I think that because of the age I am that I got into YouTube at a time where it was more fashionable to make high quality music videos. I got into it pretty early, but now, for example, I'd say the last couple years, YouTube has really taken this turn towards content creation and vlogging, and music is more a thing that's attached to the video as opposed to being the thing itself that you would present. And so the type of stuff that I've done over the last few years in music videos is a little bit like a dinosaur now.
I think the move in music is more towards raw content, so things that are taken on cell phones and stuff like that. And in the past, I would have never allowed myself to just post those things, but now I realize that the attention economy is very different than it was in, let's say 2013. And so it's good, actually, to just show these real life scenarios a little bit. And then that gives people it builds up their commitment to a 10 minute staged music video with drones and all the bells and whistles that come along with it. I think we're always shifting and adapting, but I love doing those videos and I would totally do more of them if I had the time.
To come back to what you were saying. I thought it was interesting what you were saying about funding. Funding is a big factor in Canada, pardon the pun, the factor that people expect that if they're going to do a big project that they need funding. I've always had more of an attitude of, well, I'm going to use my own hard earned money and just pay for the video, even if it's going to cost me a lot of money because I don't want to be dependent on the funding. I appreciate that we have it here in this country and that it's not just a purely capitalistic scenario, but I think that funding is also a thing that's like the times with social media and the internet it's like things go in and out of fashion and the types of things that get funding change over time, but quality is always the same.
If you make something of quality it's timeless. And so you should make it regardless of whether it's in fashion or not, you should just make it. I don't want to be dependent on whether I feel that what I do is relevant in the cultural landscape in Canada now, that doesn't matter to me, I'm going to do the same thing I've been doing over the last 10 years in 20 years, hopefully. I want to be immutable in that regard and not be affected in any way by what's happening around me here, and what's available in terms of those external resources.
Leah Roseman:
You've brought up so many different points I'd like to go off on these tangents. One thing I was thinking about you mentioned album art because your duo with Heather Sita Black, The Visit, she did the album art, right? She's also an artist.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
She did the album art for Worlds Within, that's right. And that's an integral component of that record the visual world, the whole concept. Actually, those paintings were completed before the album was. I was working on the record and then I was looking at the paintings and I thought, "That's the album cover. I need that." Of course, there's two of them and they're similar. They're these resin paintings. It's an Aleatoric style. You're pouring the resin on the canvas and then stirring and it comes out in its own way in a very natural flow. You can just keep looking at them forever. I thought, "This oceanic, elemental vibe is exactly the right thing for this music," which has a very circular trajectory. It's not a linear path.
Some pieces there's this feeling of having to go through this linear journey and then it's like, "Well, you've conquered C minor." There's a big cadence at the end and it's final, or there's this feeling of having slain the beast, and with this record it doesn't do that at all, and it doesn't really try to show off in any way. There's some dramatic moments in the middle, but it's more like this completely circular journey. And so in that way, I think that the artwork is perfect for it because they both have that kind of it's sort of indirect. It doesn't really come at you saying something specific, or making you feel like you have to understand it from one angle. It invites you in to interpret it the way it might be and the way you want it to be.
And then the live album also has one of her paintings, which is again similar. And I thought, "I knew the one and this is going to be right as a companion record." I need to have something, again, that's complimentary to the first so that they can exist together as a little box set, or whatever, that it's expanding in that universe and not completely departing from it. As I've done various things to spin out the record and find new ways to reinvent it and manage the promotional campaign, also, I've just felt like it's actually this universe and the Worlds Within. It's kind of a world building, maybe soft world building because you don't know the entire backstory, like Lord of the Rings, you don't have all the appendices, or whatever. You know the general story, but then there's a lot of things on the periphery that are vague and it's up to you to interpret them, but you get these different angles and you get to go back into that universe with the live album.
I'm probably going to do one other spinoff project of it before I decide it's enough, but people like that, too. People like sequels and prequels and spinoff series, and things like that. If they really like a story then they'll get into it. I think that's totally okay if the content you're delivering is good and it's not just repeating the same old ground, but giving something new as well then I think it's welcome.
Since we have the call running we could talk a little bit about this tuning that I'm using here. Of course, I was tuning again because this morning I was in standard equal temperament for some recording I was doing, but this is an open tuning that I came up with for Worlds Within, but I didn't really do it specifically for that. I had been toying with it for a while. It's the standard A, D then F, B flat. Of course, we see a B, F sharp D, A tuning sometimes in cello music, not particularly often, but it's a bit more known. This is an extension of D minor you could say because you're still within the same key. So you're really mostly operating within that modality, but I also see it as a B flat Lydian tuning.
I think one of the first things that came out for the Worlds Within material, for example, was this layered harmonic idea. So then the idea is to have that as the variable texture where you can change the bassline. So you could go, for example. You could also go. It's a way to improvise a solo. So now we have a second... So that's Unending I, of course, from Worlds Within is the first part of the album. Can you hear me okay when I'm talking?
Leah Roseman:
I can. Although, sometimes when you're playing and talking it was a little hard. I would avoid that, but beautiful. Thank you.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Thanks. So to maybe recap some of that I was just trying to explain a little bit of what's happening at different points in the music. Basically, there's a loop of harmonics, but the harmonics don't really indicate what the chords are going to be. And what I like to do with looping is to create that ambiguity where it starts off with something, and you're not really sure where the floor is. It's like in a film, for example, where it's really zoomed in on something and it starts to pan out and then you understand where you are, but you don't right away.
It leaves room for the piece to develop some added interest, particularly when you have a thing like this, which is repeating for so long, it doesn't feel so much like it's just repeating forever. So there's the harmonics that are looping, that are creating this ethereal texture. Then there's another set of harmonics that loop also. And so when the first set fades away, then you have this lighter version of the same thing. And then a version at the beginning also. And that gives it a more sparse texture to end on.
And the solos were improvised in the beginning on the record as everything was completely improvised and then we picked what we liked, but then over time when you get used to the record then you start playing it that way. In the live album, then it's got its own version. And now I pretty much play it like the live album. So it's not really improvised anymore. And at the end I want to have this crossroads scenario where all of a sudden now we're sitting on this drone, and then we have these questions that are asked. It was this feeling of looking towards whatever comes next.
Leah Roseman:
I was thinking about so many things. One of them was in terms of finding a new audience and you talked about promotion and it's all about connection, and you talked briefly about the new content on social media, which is these very casual, which I hated at the beginning, and now I've come around to I get it, but I think it's about making those connections with audiences that they feel like they know you that's why it works.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Exactly, 100%. I was the same initially. I was really allergic to the idea of posting something, also, that was raw. And, no, it needed to be the finished product. And so then I would take a lot of time and I would justify that I was taking the time that I needed to make that thing, but the issue is that, again, I use the term attention economy. The thing is that our attention is getting fragmented into these smaller and smaller slivers. And it's being done by powers that are much bigger than we are as individuals.
While we also have more power in a way, more autonomy to get the art out there and to reach people easily, it's also there's more people doing that than ever. So it's more about standing out. You have to develop a level of investment in the person and their story before then the audience feels that they're prepared to commit to the actual art and that they can go and sit down and watch the music video, or buy the album, or go to the show, or whatever. That's a much higher level of commitment. You can't go there cold. You have to warm them up to it a little bit. And I'm cool with that.
One thing I have to say is that posting stuff from my shows, for example, short clips, or during 2020 and 2021, I made a lot of phone videos from home. Of course, those are a bit more curated in the sense that I could do other takes of things if I wasn't satisfied, but more and more, I've just learned to embrace things not being perfect, or not being exactly the way I would like to have them. I think it's been really healthy. Actually, I feel like using social media to share my music has been a really good exercise in not being so precious about everything and focusing more on consistency and showing up and doing the thing rather than getting cold feet and not doing it because I'm worried that it's not 100%, or whatever. I think that's good in life in general.
Are you going to not show up because you're worried that you won't impress yourself enough? It's like you're not going to do as well in the long term by deciding to retreat and not show up because you thought, "I'm scared that I'm not going to deliver, or I'm not ready today," or whatever. It's more about doing it even when you're not ready because most of the time when you have a big opportunity the conditions are not always good, but you still have to do your best even though no one knows that you're feeling at your worst potentially. And so it's just a good exercise in the day to day showing up and doing your thing and putting yourself out there.
Again, it's like if you had a store if you have a small business and you're only open part of the time, maybe a couple days a week that's not so good. You got to be open maybe six days a week, or seven days a week. And so that's how I see it. I show up and I go to work and that's what it is really. It's been a process more recently of embracing the imperfection and being more gentle with myself. A lot of people are not bothered by that because they're not really there to look for all those things. And maybe they might notice some things, but they're more there for the overall energy and the commitment to the offering that is the music, and the heart that you put into it, and the energy that you bring that far outweighs small technical details and things that might be different from the where version from the record, or the score, or whatever it is.
I'm focusing more on that understanding that the value that we each bring to performance has much more to do with the energy and the commitment to creating that moment and being fully there for it and feeling through the music. I think that's much more important really, and playing live after having had a break from doing it really brought me back to that thinking, "Okay, we get a second chance to do this." I don't want to feel like I came back and did these shows, and wasn't really committed to that moment that I was on autopilot, and so in a way it was a good reminder to come back to that and understand what live performance is really about in that way. I think in that sense, I also feel that in the last year, I've definitely had an even greater commitment to the energy that I bring to the stage than maybe I did before.
Leah Roseman:
I feel the same way, actually. I'm curious at the very beginning of the pandemic did you actually stop playing for a while, or did you keep taking your cello out every day, or other instruments?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
That's a great question. Well, I had been pretty busy. I got back to Canada from a three week tour in Europe and the Middle East. It was in February 2020. Countries were closing down and then we were leaving them and then things were getting shut down and events were getting canceled. And so I got off of that and I arrived in Canada and people were a little bit scared. I had some more shows and I think it was just a few days later that they announced, I remember it was March 13th, they announced it's a global pandemic. And so it was like, "I guess everything is canceled for now." The first two weeks I took a break from cello, but I played bass guitar every day and I played electric guitar every day. I just experimented and practiced and used pedals and tried stuff, so I would say I was creative.
Because I had been playing cello on tour and doing these shows, I thought, "I don't need to use this for a little bit. Let's do something different because I could." And normally I don't get the time to play other instruments. I have so much cello related work I have to do that people are expecting me to do that I have to stay on it. And even then sometimes playing your instrument to practice is a little bit of a scarcity because you're dealing with so much other like logistics, and emails. And internet, and all those sorts of things.
At the beginning, I slowed it down a bit, but then pretty quickly I wanted to play again, but that's a good question because I think that a lot of people maybe felt that their motivation to practice was called into question a little bit where when you always have a thing to work towards, if you have a performance, then it always keeps you in shape, or if you have a social event, actually, where you have to be there around other people and you have to have your chops up then, of course. A social pressure is very strong for humans. So naturally we feel that we should show up and be put together, whereas, when you don't need to be around people, it's kind of like.
Leah Roseman:
Ahhh.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
I think that was the case for a lot of people, but I would say I also dropped Worlds Within for a little bit. I put it to sleep for a little while. I felt like at the beginning of the pandemic that it was almost inappropriate to talk about certain things. It was very serious. And the mood was we didn't really want to bother anybody about anything. Some people reached out to me right away and said, "Oh, let's work on a project." I had no interest, actually. I didn't take offers. I let them slide.
The first three months I felt like I was retired. I worked on a few things, but in general it was pretty chill. I was doing more creative work, exploring more. And then by July things started to really move again. I started doing live streams and some actual outdoor shows. And then I got really busy with session work. People started asking me to do session work. I got set up from home and jumped right off the deep end and started doing that all the time. I had never used a digital audio workstation before. I had watched people do it a lot, but I had to learn all of that as I went along. And so that's how it went for me.
Leah Roseman:
I know you did over 40 sessions, different studio recordings in 2021. It strikes me you're quite young you were really well-established as a studio musician internationally at such a young age because you started in your teens to do that work.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
It was the byproduct of working on my own music and trying to record it as a teenager that I ended up being in studios and meeting engineers and meeting other musicians. And then if you have something that's maybe a bit unique, or they're interested in the project you're doing then they might ask you to play on their record. Again, speaking about Dean Watson, he was a big help for me in the early days, especially, because he's very well-connected here. And so by knowing him and working with him, I got to meet a lot of people automatically. And so that was extremely helpful.
I think it started off as more of a local thing. I was playing in the evenings in university after classes, and stuff. I'd play gigs and then I would meet people and then they would ask me to play on their records. And I started getting known in Ottawa in my late teens, early 20s. And then I moved to Toronto and I started getting busy there, but the other thing is the projects that I was working on like Musk Ox, for example, which we've had as a group for a long time has always had an international reputation. And my other projects, too, The Visit, and my solo stuff, and Kamancello, it's all been maybe received a bit more abroad, actually. And so that all came back, but actually the pandemic is where it really became much more international and less local, or national.
It's funny because we've always had the ability to record remotely. For many years we've had the technology, but people didn't do it as much. I think, especially, the last couple of years, people realized, well, I could work with anybody in the world, really, as long as they have a home set up. It's not even about being in a proper studio anymore. It's just about getting things done and working with the right people. And so then I started getting a lot more offers from people in different countries and it was cool to see how they would operate. It's been a really wide range as it often is, but I don't really specialize in a style. I just do me and people ask me to do something and I try to cater to that. It changed a lot in that way. And certainly last year was an insanely busy year for recording, which I think was good, but now, actually, I'm ready to not do that so much. There was just so many projects.
They were really cool, some really great music, a lot of it that hasn't been released. A lot of really challenging music, too, that required a lot of time and attention to detail. I think it's like anything when you go into that level of specialization with it, eventually you get to a point where you feel that maybe you've said what you needed to say with it. And that if you continue forever at that pace, that you're just really repeating yourself, you're not necessarily doing something new. And so for me, there actually is an artistic need to do things that I feel will fulfill me in new ways because if I'm working on projects like that all the time then sometimes there's a feeling of, "Oh, I've done another thing like this in the past." And it becomes less exciting and it's nice to have that feeling for it not just to be work.
Leah Roseman:
It's interesting. I listened to so many of your recordings and collaborations with other people and you said, "You do you." And you definitely have a voice, but describing your music, labels really bother me, and how would I even describe you? I would say a multi-genre and I would call you a multi-instrumentalist, even though you're known best as a cellist because you play, as you mentioned, bass guitar, piano, oud, flamenco guitar.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
I've done all those things over the years, drums, so a lot of stuff. That comes more from being someone who writes music and you think, "Well, okay, I'll just write on this instrument." You envision a texture with these instruments and then you decide, "Okay, maybe I'll just play them," or something, but thinking about the bigger picture and how each component works and then trying to get a bit more hands on with it. And I think that I just also know how I like things to be played when I've written them. So then sometimes I'll naturally pick it up and figure out the feel that it needs. Even if I'm not the most specialized on that instrument I know what is required to get it to fit in with the whole. It's something that comes from composing.
It's funny because there's also danger that when you work on things and your microscope is on really high trying to nail specific parts, and you're trying to really perfect that one aspect of the music that then you get sucked out from that because then you're in the opposite end of the spectrum. So I try to balance those things out where on one hand a lot of the session work I do, it's really like you're one component of a bigger thing often, but then, also, the way you build whatever your part is has to be done meticulously. And you're almost like a horse in blinders, you're not paying attention to everything else and then it works, but, also, there's times when you really need to zoom out and not listen to any one thing, but just get the overall impression.
I find more and more that when I listen to artists in a live setting and when I'm taking something in for the first time, I want it to be that way. I just want to take it in as music and not be so focused on these tiny details because they should all serve the bigger thing really. When you're nerding out on stuff and you're trying to make your music really cool sometimes you can get lost in those details, too, and forget, well, what is this saying in general? For someone who doesn't know about all that stuff and maybe can't appreciate it on the same level will it still say that for them? And then for other people who want to look in greater detail, can they enjoy again the whole, and also the individual parts if they want to? Not everyone is going to want to know those inner workings and that's okay, but they're there serving a purpose whether you notice them or not ideally. I think about that more and more in terms of a composition and how it comes across.
Leah Roseman:
I'd love to see in the future yourself, or somebody write a concerto for you with orchestra kind of like hybrid. I recently interviewed Tracy Silverman who has had such an interesting career and he did a lot of rock and different styles of jazz, a multi-genre player who came out of this classical background. He has had a bunch of concertos written for him and his electric violin, and he's written some, and what's interesting is then he does a solo version with looping of the concerto by various people.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
That's really cool.
Leah Roseman:
I was thinking you guys are different, but similar in some ways. And I was also curious because I know you play on a Schryer, a beautiful acoustic cello mostly. Do you play electric cello like a five-string at all?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
I've thought about an extended range instrument for sure. I haven't physically played an electric cello that I really liked that I thought was superior in sound. The Schryer cello with the pickup that I have and then the effects it just sounds good. It has a lot of body to it and it doesn't lose any of the complexity of the sound and the low end, and that sort of thing. So I think because it's such a workhorse, actually, even for a fine handmade instrument, it's like a workhorse in all these scenarios. So I've just used it on everything and I've just re-tuned it and stuff. I would really like to try either some type of electric five-string, or I was even thinking it would be cool to have a Piccolo cello with a pickup, like a retrofitted thing, or something that's customized because it would just be cool to play with that extra tessitura to have the extra string.
For me the whole concept of invention that you see in Bach and all of these composers that wrote for the unaccompanied string instruments, that stuff I just can't get enough of it. It's just so tasty when it's done right, and using a lot of open strings and harmonics and making the instrument really work for you. I would totally be excited to try to do something like that with an extended range instrument. I never really had the opportunity, but I've thought a little bit about that and what you could do, for example, if you had a high E string, but then you were still tuning the low strings down a little bit, so then you would widen even more that would be pretty cool.
It's just a question of getting access to those things because I feel like they're not standard. Something that is a bit weird to me in bowed string playing is that there's a lot of people out there doing really interesting things and they all do it in their own individual way because there hasn't been any big market trend to jump on this and try to capitalize on it really. With guitars, for example, there's so many things with software, these plugins that you can use to simulate or emulate your favorite players, all these extended range instruments and these different lines and signature models. There's just so much out there.
Of course, it's cool that that exists, but it's a double-edged sword because now you see that market is so oversaturated because so many people can sound like their favorite player that they do. And then it makes it a little bit less special because it turns into this fashion trend, as opposed to everyone making their own artistic statement in an organic way of their own accord. I have mixed feelings about it, but I think that with cello, or violin, or viola it would be cool maybe to see a little bit more of a move towards maybe a new line of electric instruments, or some pedals that are customized, like optimized for bowed strings, and not just for guitars.
Leah Roseman:
You should really talk to Tracy because he does all that, but his friend Mark Wood, do you know Wood violins?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
I've heard of him.
Leah Roseman:
For years in the International Musician Union member there would be Mark with his Viper violin I remember, so he's going to be on this podcast soon. I know that they customize electric cellos and I know they have a five-string cello. I think they call it a Cobra, or something.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
The Cobra. I remember seeing that. I've definitely seen those. Again, you can't go to Long & McQuade, or a Guitar Center and find one though. So you really have to know those people and then try it out. I've heard Violectra makes good electric cellos. I've never tried one, but apparently they sound good. I have a friend that has one and sounds great on it. I would be interested in maybe going that route, but I feel like there's a lot left for me to just do with the gear that I have.
Leah Roseman:
I was curious about touring, though, because you're touring with Leprous, so heavy metal band that's expensive to be shipping. Do you buy a seat for your cello every time?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
At the beginning we were using that cello and that was part of the expense of having me out there was the cello seat. I did a few tours with the Schryer cello. It was the 2020 tour where we had a lot of flights. And so when you're flying so much within the tour then you need to be checking instruments. For example, if you don't have a tour bus that you can bring stuff into you have a trailer, and everything, and you're just driving. Then all of a sudden you have to just go carry-on, basically. And then minimal gear that you would check on the plane. And so that's when I started using the carbon fiber cello. I used it for that tour. I have the double case and I check it and then actually all the other stuff I've done live with them since has been with that cello.
It's useful because for these one-off festivals, and things where it's really touch and go we're dragging all of these things around and we don't have the luxury of a vehicle it's extremely helpful, but, also, I was going to say when you tour in the states in particular there's a wide range of climates that if you're going to put your instrument in the trailer, and then you're driving through all these places, and you might have a nine hour drive where the weather changes a lot then at least you know when you take it out it's going to be the same. And then my bow actually travels in the vehicle in a bow case. That carbon fiber cello can handle all of that stuff, basically.
We did this show in France at Hellfest, and it was 40 degrees out. You play outdoors in 40 degree weather it's like you bring that cello. I still use a wood bow. I don't really think that carbon fiber bows are really on the level in the same way. They don't produce the overtones, the sound. They're okay, they sound clean, but you don't get that same frequency range. It just can't produce that. Anyway, in terms of gear that's what I do.
Leah Roseman:
You talked a little bit about perfectionism, you touched on it. I think a lot of musicians we have that streak, especially, string players because we always have to think about playing in tune and you play super well in tune. So I'm curious, you're an improviser, you've been improvising from a young age, so that frees you up from the perfectionistic streak and you play it. How do you think that affects you as an artist?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
That's interesting. In terms of improvising, I think that it makes me feel that having my own creative agency and jumping in there and doing something a bit unknown feels in a way actually more secure because I can create it as I go. And I think it's the combination of being secure on the instrument, knowing your way around the instrument you can control the rules of the game a little bit when you improvise to varying degrees. When you play with different people, then you don't always have the same amount of musical affinity with them, and that depends on the person a lot, but you can at least feel secure in your sound and the way you approach your instrument.
The tuning thing, to be honest, it's something I think about all the time because the instrument doesn't really speak fully. It doesn't really resonate fully when we don't play in tune. I think when it really hit me was when I started recording cello on records and the first time actually I think was, well, I had done some session work in high school, but then I did some stuff of my own and I had this composition and it was a five cello layered thing. I had never done that before, but I had all of a sudden wanted to do it, and it was only at that moment that I realized these layers have to stack up in a certain way. It's like this kind of puzzle. To intimate these cords and everything so they all feel good you have to be super aware of centering everything, but also understanding the type of tuning system you're using and how you're going to make all of that add up.
I got really obsessed with it in a way. I was doing so much session work and a lot of it was layering. A lot of it started off with more four part harmonies and then it got to eight, nine, 10 layers, and depending on the project it would get really dense. And so I just got a lot of experience doing that. I would say playing on other people's records and my own, but just having so much experience in the studio and having to deliver results made me think a lot about how the left hand especially operates, and why do you think sound the way they do? You start analyzing the behavior of the left hand a lot and when do you vibrate and how much, and should you really vibrate on certain things? Those are all things that I thought about a lot, and so I think it adds up.
And then in an improvised setting then it's like that makes it easier to play something for the first time as though the red button was on and you were recording, and you were going to play it as though it was the actual thing that would end up being put on the record. Does that answer your question? It's my experience of it really, but I feel like improvisation is something that I've done forever. I was lucky to get to play with people also and jam with people from a very young age and feel like it was okay, and that what I was doing was okay.
There was never this feeling of, "Oh, I don't know what to do, or I'm not doing the right thing." I always had this feeling of "I'm doing the right thing, or the thing that feels cool to me at that time." And maybe when I was really young it was terrible, but I didn't feel that way. I felt like it was exciting and good. I always felt at home with it. I think hearing something and then responding to it with what makes sense musically always felt better to me than reading off of a page and trying to make sure that I got all the details in the page.
I'm the type of person where I can walk into a room if it's in my own house, for example, and just not notice stuff. I won't notice that there was something dirty for a really long time and just not pay attention to it. On a sheet you might not pick up on a detail. It's only experience that teaches you. Okay, you have to scan all the details and see that stuff in advance because it's going to bite you later, and someone else might notice it so then you're going to play differently from them, but, also, that aspect of playing differently is something that I always held onto. I always embraced that. I always thought, "I want to play differently from other people. I don't want to play the same way as them. So I'm going to lean into that."
Even as I got more comfortable playing in group settings and in orchestra and chamber music, I always had this feeling of, "Yeah, but I'm going to bring a bit of myself in there and have a bit of attitude as well." So that's something that never really left. I always wanted to bring that personality regardless of the music. Of course, the music is going to change what you bring to the table, but it just felt more right to me somehow. I think that when you watch a concert, for example, you watch exciting players something that makes it exciting is that you can see their personalities. It's like they're at a table having a conversation. If you're watching a movie if it's a really good script, and the actors are good, then you should get a sense of each person's character within that one scene. And you're already getting an idea of where they each come from and how they would respond to a certain question, or whatever.
Leah Roseman:
I think that's where small ensembles differ from large ensembles.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Agreed 100%. Actually, to bring it back to recording that's also why when I do really layered stuff, I barely vibrate. I don't play most of the parts with much character at all really. And then maybe if there's a top part that you know is going to stick out, but even then maybe it's just all about the blend. It totally contextual, 100% right, of course. Part of why I think improvisation has appealed to me in that way is because there's that feeling of each person being their own personality and it's the way those personalities interact, or if there's one person on stage then it's really about their voice, actually.
Leah Roseman:
When you play with Leprous from what I understand, you have more of a supporting role.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
It's mixed. In that group every person in the band has their opportunity to shine because of the compositions. I think that it's like when you play with a singer then, of course, that's what most people are going to focus on probably is the singer and the lyrics, or just the focus of there being a front person on stage, or whatever, but it's the type of music, also, that because it's very dynamic and progressive, which is a funny term, but there's a lot of musical interest happening throughout all of the instruments, and throughout the pieces. There's a lot that you can pay attention to.
For example, some mixes it's like you have a main part and then everything else feels a little bit like it's really being pushed down and compressed together, and you can't necessarily discern all the details, but here it's like there's a lot of ear candy, and your attention is being drawn in different places. I think that there's moments where the cello is operating more like it's creating an orchestral texture and there's other places where it's playing a lead. And there's other places where, especially, in the live setting, not so much in the records, but live sometimes I'll play the same thing as the guitar, or the bass and double, or do things that are more texture oriented, like sound effects and using pedals, and stuff like that. And that's also what I like about the shows is that there's a lot of room within the pieces to add extra Easter eggs and improvise a little bit within certain sections and not play the same thing, but you're decorating parts.
And then there's other parts where you really commit and you have to play very specifically. That's something about that group, actually, that's interesting because we play in your monitors, and we play with a click track, and there's backing tracks, and stuff, and there's a lot going on. And everybody in that band is a very good musician, exceptionally good musicians. When you play the songs, you have to play really tight. Again, the issue of playing in tune is a huge thing and getting everything to line up in a certain way so the ensemble feels cohesive so when you're hearing things in that level of detail it's almost like you're in a studio.
I remember for a while it was a bit nerveracking because I was so focused on trying to lock-in in that way and make sure that everything worked, but over time I feel that it's better to let go more and allow it to happen. If you know the material and you've been playing it, of course, it's easier, but just to sink into it a bit more because usually it turns out better. This feeling of like, of course, in a way you are being a surgeon, you're trying to, okay, can I get all of these really difficult shifts in tune over this thing that's happening while standing up? And there's all this stuff going on it can feel a little bit overwhelming, but it's also better to just have this easy feeling in the body and just let it happen.
Leah Roseman:
Standing up cello?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Yeah, often playing standing with them.
Leah Roseman:
Like a really long endpin because you're a tall guy.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Yeah, I just make a longer endpin because sometimes I walk around a little bit and play. And increasingly we're playing on bigger stages, too, where you need to occupy that space. It depends. Some things I never tried to play them standing because I think that it would be too difficult, but I do enjoy it a lot. I actually feel like as a cellist it does release some tension to stand and this feeling of sitting and your body is compressed any nerves that you're feeling already get a bit amplified, or they have nowhere to really disperse it's a lot harder, whereas, when you're standing, you have this feeling that you can just let that go a bit more. And so I like that in a way there's a bit more freedom. You don't feel like you're in your little box and then you're stuck there.
Leah Roseman:
When I was reading about electric cellos, I'm not trying to convince you, or anything. I'm just curious about it that they're self-supporting some of them so that you don't have to hold it and you can stand and they're smaller I guess.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
For sure.
Leah Roseman:
I'm curious about this click track. Is this common for rock bands that you perform with a click track?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Yeah. It's more and more that way. I would say with heavy music, anything that's metal oriented it's definitely a thing because I think part of it is that a lot of that music is written on the computer. And so there can be some very anal tempo changes happening that are very specific and certain things, especially, extreme metal, like a lot of death metal, and stuff, where the drumming in particular is very physical and requires super crazy precision. If you had it too fast or too slow, it wouldn't really work. It would be difficult to play, actually, so the tempo has to be very specific. So in a lot of those very technical styles, I think it helps the bands play better together, and your monitors, of course, gives you a better sense of what's happening, but then having the click track gives you this reference that you lock onto.
And the last part is very clear it's the backing tracks. A lot of bands have tracks. It's very practical if someone can't be there, if something happens and someone can't be on stage. For example, our bass player couldn't make the last few shows of our last tour, but we were able to record the last show that he played and just play those songs. Actually, the audience was hearing his bass performance live, but on a track. And, of course, then it would be the same every time, and we would be together with it, so it's very common.
It's funny. I don't see a lot of bands in the region. In fact, I don't know if I can think of any bands in the Ottawa region that I know of that use in-ears, but in Europe it's very common, and the states to a degree as well. I think if you're playing that type of music for sure, but certainly in pop I think everyone is using in-ears.
Leah Roseman:
Oh, yeah.
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Wedges are horrible. I've had a lot of varied experiences. I like the feeling of the air moving on stage. I like that feeling of the sound being loud, but it's, also, you don't really have the level of clarity, so you could be hearing something and then actually it sounds entirely different in the PA, and you're getting this speaker blasting stuff at you. Even that last show that I did at Red Bird the other week, actually, the wedges ended up being way too loud. It was really harsh. I wanted some high end, but there was just too much high end and it was really hard in my ears, actually. In general, the in-ears do save you that a little bit, but then, also, you have a lot of sound directly in your ear canal, so you have to be able to somehow balance that so that it feels like it's not overwhelming.
Leah Roseman:
I was going to ask you about hearing damage, do you think you've suffered from any?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Definitely. I am sure I have lots. I have crazy loud tinnitus, crazy. That's partly a result of playing a bowed string instrument because it produces a lot of overtones, and a lot of high end information already. And then when you play it amplified, you get even more because any added gain is going to add all these new frequencies to the sound, and a lot of it even comes from recording, actually. I would say it probably doesn't come from attending shows at all. It's probably exclusively from recording and playing shows. I think it comes with the territory a little bit, but I'm pretty conscious of not giving my ears too much information on days when I don't have to work. If I'm listening to music, I don't need to blast music when I'm just listening. I might not go to a show that I don't want to go to, or I'm definitely going to wear these to the show because it would just be a stupid place to get more hearing damage, so that's how it is for me.
I'll be honest. I like hearing things loudly when I'm actually playing. I think we all do because you get more into it. It's hard when it's turned all the way down to feel like you can commit to what you're playing in the same way. It feels like it's so distant. Then you have to play cautiously. It's tricky, but it's something that I think about pretty much daily now. I'm definitely cautious, but sometimes things happen and then you think, "Oh, it wasn't so bad," but it still affects you. Hearing damage is real and it's not something to make fun of. It's cool to have your hearing and it's totally okay to wear earplugs, and all that stuff.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, most musicians have some level of hearing damage. Well, talking about health. You're a high energy guy and you tour a lot. What do you do in terms of physical and mental health, do you go for runs? Do you meditate? What kind of stuff?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
Yeah, I do exercise, not as much as I would like, but I stay active. I think that ideally people talk about having coffee in the morning. For me, the best way to start a day is to get some type of exercise, whether it's running, or going for a bike ride, or some calisthenics, or something like that. That stuff definitely changes your whole approach to the day, also, and your energy level. When you're traveling it can be really hard to do that, although, on tour, it's possible, if you force it to happen when you have even a half an hour, or something. The guys in Leprous, most of those guys are really good at that, actually. They're really good at taking time to exercise in their respective ways. They all have different routines and things they do.
Also, walking is really good. I walk a lot. It's just generally good for the mind as well. I feel like we spend so much of the day with mental chatter and all this stuff going on. And especially when you're online, then you really get in your own head more. And so then the voice in your head gets louder and it's hard to be connected back with your body, which ultimately I think makes you more in the present moment, and able to do things in the real world. It's like your nervous system gets a bit scrambled sometimes. I find for me, that's how it is with the internet, but I find that walking is one of the best things for that because you have the time to take in your surroundings. You're not just focusing on sustaining the exercise, but you could go for a long time and gradually it clears your head a lot. So for me, that's really important.
I would say exercise and then, also, good eating habits and not eating weird things. For me, it's always been very easy to not eat crap, but then on the road, too, one thing that actually touring made me do is to stop drinking alcohol. I realized alcohol doesn't make me feel good, especially, the next day. It makes it especially hard when you're traveling and you're living in a moving vehicle. And so maybe just why do that? Of course, moderation is fine, but I feel like I don't need that. For me, I don't do alcohol. I don't do coffee, and that makes functioning a lot easier, especially, I find those types of things don't actually go well with lack of sleep and lack of sleep is a big part of this job, especially, the traveling part.
Doing festivals, and even touring to an extent often you don't get good sleep it's fragmented, and sometimes you're flying, or you're on a weird schedule, or jet lag, or whatever. So then being able to save energy and function well, even if you've had a minimal amount of sleep is really important. It's not easy, but you get used to it, and you understand your own patterns. I understand also when my mood changes, I realize it's because of that and that I need to take some space. I try to come up with strategies to handle those things well.
Leah Roseman:
To manage, we talked a little bit about promotion and stuff. Do you compartmentalize because the internet can be like you're saying with notifications and responding to fans and all that, how do you manage that so it doesn't get too much into your day?
Raphael Weinroth-Browne:
I would say the best way I don't always manage it well I'm going to be honest about that, but what I tend to do is if I want to get something good done, it's going to get done early in the day. Of course, you can put in good hours later, but they're not as good, for me, they're never as good. So being able to start something important, basically, in two or three hours before noon in the day that's essential. Basically, if I don't engage with my email, or with social media it's difficult sometimes because you think, "Oh, I should really think about what I'm going to post here. What would be the right thing today, or should I wait? Oh, there's this person that is waiting for me to reply."
Of course, there's always these things that are pulling at you, but if you take the time for yourself, I find that your day goes dramatically better. For me, if I get those things done before noon, something, even just putting a dent in something, then I can go into the abyss of the internet and feel like my day isn't getting sucked away super fast, so the early hours are really important just getting some of the good work done. Ideally, as much as possible, but I try to be gentle on myself and go like, "Okay, you did a little bit there that's good." Because that's a good habit. I think it's important to reward good habits and to not just feel like, "Oh, I'm never getting enough done," type of thing, which is an easy feeling to have.
Nowadays, we feel somehow I think it's this weird societal pressure to be productive. I don't think that previous generations of people felt that same need. I think it's a constructive thing as I'm sure in previous generations there were other things that society constructed for us that were totally in our heads that didn't really exist in any tangible way, but we all just believed them. So productivity is one of them for sure. I think it's a very American idea, too, of your efficiency over time and how much you can get done. Quantity is important I think in the sense of consistency, but quality is something that not everyone can deliver. If you can deliver something with quality, then it makes what you do much more valuable. It's not only to other people, but, also, I think that having a practice of making something in a way that has quality it's like a meditation.
I find when I record that I'm really slow. I take a lot of time. I'm probably much slower than other people that do the same type of work, but when I finish, I go, "Okay, I couldn't have done this better." And then I deliver the files and it's like, "Okay, I know that I did it to the best of my ability." And that's just the way I want to work now. I don't want to settle for less than that. I take pride in that. It's like a craftsman, or someone like a luthier, let's say. Luthiers are like this where they take a lot of pride in their work, and I understand why because it's a special and unique art. They spend a lot of time working on an instrument and making it something that someone else can live with for a long time. That's a special thing. And to be able to have that power to take wood, basically, and turn it into this thing that can produce music that's a kind of magic in a way. Of course, creating music is like that, too.
I think that craftsmanship and taking pride in your work and being able to enjoy the slow process and not feel like it just needs to get done at a certain time because you're on the clock, but to understand your own rhythm and then to arrive at a result that satisfies you, for me, that's really important. I think that sometimes people expect everything very quickly, especially, nowadays, but being able to work at a pace that feels true to you is important as well. And that can be hard because you have to distance yourself from the pressure of, well, hey, haven't you done this thing? And it's like sometimes it just takes the time that it takes, and that's all there is to it.
Leah Roseman:
Part two of this episode will be released one week after the release of this first part. It's a bit shorter and has more music and includes some interesting background on Raph's development as a musician. He also shares his advice on building relationships in the music business to help artists find different avenues to promote their music. He speaks about improvisation, his love of Middle Eastern music, and his collaboration with Shahriyar Jamshidi in Kamancello.
My life is so enriched by getting to know all these fascinating musicians on this series. Please check out more of these episodes. I speak with a diverse range of musicians following different career and creative paths. All these episodes are available in both video and podcast format. Everything is linked in the description of the episode to my website, leahroseman.com.
