Karen Donnelly: Transcript
Leah Roseman:
You're listening to Conversations with Musicians, with Leah Roseman. In episode nine, season one, I spoke with the amazing trumpet player, Karen Donnelly, who's the principal trumpet of the National Arts Centre Orchestra, Canada, which is the orchestra that I'm a member of. And during the interview, she played a little bit for us. She talked about her role as a mentor to other women brass players, her advice about practicing and perspectives on her life in music. All of these interviews are available in video format and the link's in the description. Please follow this podcast and share, and you can hear about all the new episodes coming out with a wide range of interesting musicians.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, welcome Karen Donnelly, principal trumpet of the National Arts Centre Orchestra, educator, and lots of things. So, welcome.
Karen Donnelly:
Hi, thank you for having me.
Leah Roseman:
I was wondering if you'd be willing to play for us today and if so, maybe we could start with a little music.
Karen Donnelly:
Sure, absolutely. I'm working on this new piece I discovered actually thanks to Facebook and the pandemic. Actually there's many people as you know, putting their content online. And this amazing trumpet player that I follow, Jim Wilt, he's a member of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, he played this piece, it's called Miles Per Hour, and it's written by an American composer, Regina Harris Baiocchi. I hope I said that right. She's an American, and this is an homage to Miles Davis.
Karen Donnelly:
So it's a cool piece because it can be either solo trumpet or a duet. And it's a call and response kind of thing, where one player is playing on stage and the other player is playing off stage, but it's also can be solo where the person can create the effect of tone change with the famous Harmon mute that Miles Davis... That sound that Miles Davis... So anyway, it's a new piece for me, so here's just the first portion of it.
Karen Donnelly:
It goes on from there.
Leah Roseman:
Wow. That was so, so gorgeous. You achieved so many incredible color changes. Well, it sounded like five trumpet players back and forth.
Karen Donnelly:
Well, thank you.
Leah Roseman:
That cool technique you're doing, what's it called? I don't know what that is since I'm a violinist.
Karen Donnelly:
What, what, what, what?
Leah Roseman:
You had a sort of a rattling, it must a tonguing thing.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. That's just tonguing with the mute. It sounds more percussive than normally. It would be normally. But there's a normal note but with the mute, it's like. It's very-
Leah Roseman:
[crosstalk 00:05:06] There's another effect, but of course, I don't know the name of it. It's like a growl.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. That's the color that this Harmon mute offers. The way it's designed, there's an immense amount of resistance. So it does create that buzzy sound. Is that what you mean?
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Karen Donnelly:
Anyway, Miles David famous.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. It's a great piece, I can't wait to hear the whole thing.
Karen Donnelly:
It goes on a little bit more, but within the same kind of... And basically, it's touching on, she wanted to show the lineage of great American trumpet players. Anyway, it's really cool.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. You'd mentioned if it's done with two trumpet players, one is off stage, which is something you often have to do, and sometimes you've been out in the hall or up, and it's so hard to play with the orchestra when that happens, right?
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. It [crosstalk 00:06:08].
Leah Roseman:
I mean, you do a great job, but I can't imagine doing it myself.
Karen Donnelly:
Well, yeah. It's a weird sensation, I'm not going to lie. And there's always, everybody's got their funny stories, and I actually have one too, of playing offstage. Once I was playing actually in the third balcony at the NAC to play an offstage, fanfare thing, and there was a conference or something going on up there. It was during the dress rehearsal and I could hear somebody, but I had to do my little Leonore 3. So then of course somebody comes along and says, "You can't play that here." And I'm like, "Well, actually I kind of have to. It's short, but..." It was sort of funny. Everyone has those stories, of trying to get back to hall, the door is locked.
Karen Donnelly:
But there are elements of... It's fun, but it's also very weird because you just have to go on pure faith and then also feedback from people who are in the hall or on the stage, like, "Am I at the right pitch?" Because the farther you go, like Doppler effect, the lower the pitch goes, so you have to adjust. And then if your timing is on or off... Composers often write that in or make, so that it's like just often a... Like the Leonore 3, it's like the orchestra stops and then you hear this trumpet call or like Pines of Rome, the orchestra, it's just this bed of sound, the catacombs movement of sound underneath this beautiful lyrical offstage trumpet. Beautiful solo.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I must say I've had the privilege of hearing your playing since we were at McGill University and I've always loved the lyrical quality of your playing.
Karen Donnelly:
Thank you, Leah.
Leah Roseman:
Maybe you could talk about your role as principle trumpet, because it is a leadership position within the orchestra, you're not just a soloist.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. I'm definitely the leader of the trumpet section, obviously. That role is indicated in our collective agreement, but there's also the sort of unwritten rule, but everybody knows it, that I'm also the leader of the brass section. I do find my most successful leadership, I believe, I should say, I think it's just by leading by example. It's been where I feel like it's been most successful for me. Over the years, I remember being at McGill and the teachers there when I was playing first trumpet in the orchestra and they were like, "You're the leader, you got to get these guys together and you got to..." Like really old school. I got to crack the whip, "And you got to tell those guys what to do." That kind of thing. Personally, I feel like it doesn't bring in the collaborative element that is the most rewarding part of being an orchestra member and being a musician. That's the most rewarding part of the job for me is the teamwork together to go for this one project of the concert.
Karen Donnelly:
So I prefer by just that, they're all professionals and they're all on top of their work and that the more prepared and the more on top of it I am, that if I can just play consistently in the way that... And hopefully the conductor is happy with what he or she is hearing, then the example is set, and it's easy for everybody to follow. When I'm solid, it's just easy for everybody to follow. But I will note that, I just noticed that nobody really cares that I am the leader of the brass section, unless there's trouble. And then it's like, "Well, you're the boss, you got to make the decision." It's like, "Ah, yeah."
Leah Roseman:
You come from a really big family.
Karen Donnelly:
Yep.
Leah Roseman:
And when things are working at its best than an orchestra, I feel like it is like a family feeling because you're in usually for a very long time. Right?
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
It's not unusual for people to play with the same orchestra for 30, 40, 50 years even.
Karen Donnelly:
Especially our job, such a good job. Nice place to work, nice place to live. It's a great, yeah. We definitely... I was actually just talking to one my brass colleagues yesterday, and we were commenting on how we have this really great idea of communication and we just always try to work for the better of the project and help each other. When someone is struggling, especially personally, something's going on, we gather around and we support that person and we lift them up. We support that guy. It's fun, it's a really great, like you say, family.
Leah Roseman:
And I felt during this pandemic, there's a real sense of community of musicians across the internet, meeting people that you never would expect to meet. And we have this commonality, whether people are amateurs or professionals, we love music and it's a daily practice for us. And you've been leading trumpet players, I believe, in daily warmups or weekly?
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah, weekly. I will say it's my golden gem of this pandemic. It's one of the most joyful moments that has come, is I just started this group, we meet once a week. It started last May, I think, with my students and my former students, because it had only been two months at that point, I was getting tired of... it's lonely practicing by yourself at home, it's boring. So I just thought, "Hey, come on guys and girls, let's go, let's do this." So we're on Zoom and everyone is muted except whoever's leading. And now it's been going on. So as this pandemic went on, one of my former students says, "Hey, so and so is sort of having a tough time. Is it okay if I invite that person?" I was like, "Absolutely." And then, "Can I invite..." Then it sort of... Then I was like, "Oh, okay, this is a bigger thing."
Karen Donnelly:
So as it went on, I have created this private Facebook group and I do have some people that I contact through email as well, because they're not on Facebook. But there's over a hundred people in the group. But not that everybody comes to the weekly session, but I record it and upload it. So some people who can't make the time because it's whatever, they watch this. It's really fun, they watch the little YouTube video and we just play regular exercises together, metronome going. And like I said, the leader... And now I've had many, many people, friends, I've asked them to share their practice routine with the group and so we have this incredible collection. Actually, one of the people... And they're from all across Canada too. At one point we literally had coast to coast on one day, it just timing. Sometimes there's lots of people from Alberta or Saskatchewan or of course there's a lot of Ontario.
Karen Donnelly:
One of my friends, she showed the binder that she has of all the PDFs because people load the PDFs on, so we have all the same material. She has this binder this thick of new material, and every day she's like, "Hmm, whose routine will I do today?" All dues... So it's fun. And also it's pretty trumpet nerdy, but it's also community. We miss the hanging out and the talking, "Hey, what's up, Mutin? "Hey, blah, blah, blah." So it's a little bit of that. But we also, because people have just come together for this one sole reason of, and across the country... Actually I do have a friend in France who joins, and my long time friend from Indonesia, he wakes up at 4:00 AM to do it.
Leah Roseman:
Wow.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. He uses his practice room, because his family's asleep. But it's like, "Are you crazy?" He's like, "Yeah, it's fun. What are you talking about?" I was like, "Oh my God. This is amazing." But what was I saying anyway?
Leah Roseman:
And I actually wanted also to talk about one of your initiatives, the Canadian Women's Brass Collective. This started in person before the pandemic.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah, yeah. That's a whole... But we do have a pretty active online thing going on. Once a month we have just an online series of mostly panels and topics discussions. It is a group that I started, but I was just the instigator. We're actually, literally a collective. And there's actually no membership. I've had people contact me, "Hey, how do I join?" It's like, "Well, are you Canadian? Or do you live in Canada and are you a brass player? And are you female? Well then you're already a member." So it's everyone.
Karen Donnelly:
My own inspiration was there exists already, and has existed for 25 years or more, the International Women's Brass Conference that happens every two years. And it's always towards the end of May and I can never go. Usually falls right on the last week of our main series, and it's usually a very big, fun piece that I don't want to miss or I wouldn't be able to miss because it's the music director on the podium. So I have attended that conference, I think one, or twice, twice, but like 20 years ago. And I had this like, oh, it's too bad that Canadian young players, female and male, of all genders, wouldn't have access to seeing this, living this experience. Because it is pretty special to look on stage and see only women playing a brass instrument.
Leah Roseman:
It is. I've seen some of those videos they're posting. I'll put a link in the description of this video.
Karen Donnelly:
Okay. That's cool.
Leah Roseman:
And I was listening to this music and it was so beautiful, but it did strike me. Wow, that's different.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. It's funny to say this, but I had this dingdong realization of like, yeah, I guess that it does look different with me sitting up there on the back row and all these big dudes and me. So yeah, no wonder why I stick out. No wonder why not only I'm in a stick out job, first trumpet, it sticks out anyways, you're supposed to, but I also visually, it looks... So I've always just think of myself as a trumpet player, but now sometimes when I see these photos of the orchestra, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I guess that does look kind of weird." Sometimes I'm the only person in the white blouse and everyone's in the... or whatever. So I acknowledge that, but truly I'm just trying to be a good trumpet player, that's it.
Karen Donnelly:
But it occurred to me like, "Okay, yes. I guess I am that person that the younger female brass players look up to me." Because I had people like that. I remember being at Saskatchewan before the internet and before all the... I heard that there was one woman in the Toronto Symphony brass section. And at that time it was the late Joan Watson who was associate principal horn. And then she went on to play, I don't know, 20 years of principal on the COC before she died. And that was a moment of like, "Okay, it can be done. I could do that."
Karen Donnelly:
But then when I went to McGill, there was in the trombone section of the Montreal Symphony, Vivian Lee playing second trombone. And every week I would go and I would see that one woman in that orchestra brass section, it can be done. And then I had this moment of younger professionals who I respect and admire girl brass players coming to me and saying, "You were that person for me." I was like, "Oh boy, here we go. Wow. I guess I am that person." So then I had this thing of maybe I should do something maybe I should like... So I talked to my...
Karen Donnelly:
Anyway, so I, with the help of others organized this weekend sort of celebration and we just made up the name, Canadian Women's Brass Collective. We got one of our members in the collective designed the website and it was really like shoestring and it still is shoestring. There's no money, nobody makes money, it's all volunteer. But we pulled this thing off and it was extraordinary. Some of the younger players, and we had this mentoring thing with side by side type with the young students playing with us. And one girl said to me, "This is the greatest day of my life." I was like, "Holy cow, this is so..." But the thing I like about this group is that it's just creating visibility. It's about mentoring and education, inspiring and creating visibility for... and that it can be done. That there is a opportunities and to... It's a really positive group celebrating what we know, what we've learned, who's come before us, and hopefully what's coming ahead.
Leah Roseman:
I know in the violin world, I mean there were always female soloists, but certainly fewer than the men, it was always harder. But there was definitely a very conscious bias against women in orchestra because it was considered that the violin, I read this, I can't remember where, it was too masculine of an instrument for a woman, which really seems very ridiculous. But a big change in our profession as orchestra musicians, which the public may not realize about is that we mostly use screens in auditions. And in many orchestras it's screened all the way to the moment of hiring somebody. And as a woman, when I was doing auditions, when I was younger, I was told, never wear any clicky heels, so they can't tell.
Leah Roseman:
I believe there was a trail blazing trombonist, Abbie Conant in Germany, in the '80s, who's playing in Munich and was trying to get the solo trombone job. And I checked to make sure, Celibidache, the conductor said to her, "Well, you know I need a man in that, or we need a man in that solo role." And she fought it, she went through the courts and she finally did win. But I think she is the person who really got the screens up. I'm not sure, but.
Karen Donnelly:
Well, yeah, I'm not a 100% sure, but absolutely, absolutely, she is still a major advocator for female for equality for brass players. And we're nowhere near that. I read an article like when I was preparing for the women's brass, the first conference in 2019, our little three day event. And there was an article that came out online that said, of the top orchestras in the world and they listed, there was one female trumpet player. In the top 20 orchestras in the world, there was one female. That's the other thing is women in leadership roles in brass or in brass sections is very... I was trying to think about it the other day. And I don't think there's any other principle female trumpet players in Canada besides me.
Karen Donnelly:
And there is one other one. There's a really famous trumpet player in the states, icon, Susan Slaughter. And she started the International Women's Brass Conference. Isn't that interesting that she started that and I started the Canadian one. I just made that... Well, there you go, whatever. Anyway, but Susan Slaughter in the '70s, I think it was 1976 that she won principal in St. Louis or 78. And imagine her and Abby, the level they... They must have just been incredible players to basically convince people to resist that stereotype that's there and that iconic thing of like, "Well, yeah, it's a powerful instrument. You need a powerful, you need a man." Imagine, that's really cool. And thank God they were there for us. I probably wouldn't be doing this if they wasn't for them.
Leah Roseman:
The building we work in, the National Arts Centre was built in the late '60s, around the time we were born. And it always makes me angry, but I understand it was the time that the change room is so small for the women. It's like tiny bathroom and the men's, it's huge because they just assumed, right?
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah, twice as big.
Leah Roseman:
Anyway, I'm very interested in your practice mentality, a little bit about your routine because there are always commonalities across instruments in terms of... Yeah. I mean, I could ask you specific questions, but I'm sure you can talk to that.
Karen Donnelly:
I'm a good practicer, I practice. I mean, I always joke, but it's true. Fear is an incredible motivator. And when you're first trumpet, you're letting it all hang out. There is nowhere to hide. If you are not on your game, everyone knows it. It's not the classic thing, like only your colleagues know. No, everyone knows. I have an interesting practice sort of thing that maybe normal people don't know or whatever, but several years ago I attended a master class. I'm always curious, I'm always taking lessons myself, attending master classes, trying to learn and grow and keep it fresh because we've been doing this now couple of decades.
Karen Donnelly:
Anyway, a few years ago, I attended this masterclass with this amazing trumpet player, Tom Hooten, and he's also plays in the LA Philharmonic actually. So he introduced this idea of using a practice chart and a timer. I use a timer app that you bought. It's a very clever app, it's actually an exercise app. But I can customize it, so I have where I basically, because trumpet is very physical and we have to protect the muscles around the chops, around the lips, so I work in my rest as well as what I'm going to be practicing. I mean, I'm not super regimented, like, "Oh my God, the timer went off, I got to stop." I finish the phrase or I finish the etude and then you can start. But it's an incredible reminder for me to stop, take the thing off my face. And then it goes again. Oh yeah, it's a reminder to put the thing back on because you can get lost in writing an email or ba pa pa, get distracted. And then, "Oh, how long have I..."
Karen Donnelly:
So I love keeping track. So my practice chart, actually it's upstairs, I was going to show you. But I just write all the requirements of the technique, like slurs, sound, scales, all the things. But for us also, I guess you would be type of bow, but for us it, the different tonguing, the multiple tongue. Double tongue, single tongue, K-tongue, triple tongue, you got to check all those off. Ranges, got to check all those off. Because it's a little like, well, I suppose probably same for you, but it's like cooking a meal. If you leave a pot unattended, it's going to burn. Or you leave a pot unattended, it's going to go cold either way. So you have to make sure you're stirring all the pots. So touching all the things.
Karen Donnelly:
So I go through this cycle of, and I just love clear data. When I check it off, I can see what have I neglected? After a few days, I'm like, "Oh geez, I haven't done that for a few days. Oh, I've forgotten." It's been very efficient for me and it's saved my butt a few times where I've, like once when we were doing one of those big festivals, that we have this huge stack of music that we churn through and who knows what we're rehearsing that day, and that I was mixed up with the order and I thought this world premier modern piece was going to be in two weeks, then I had time to work on the stuff. But lo and behold, "Oh my God, this thing is tomorrow. And it's got all this huge stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And luckily I'd been working on all that stuff in my practice chart that I got away with it. But the chart saved my butt basically.
Leah Roseman:
Do you like using metronome apps where the beats drop out? I've heard some people like that.
Karen Donnelly:
Oh, what's that? What app is that?
Leah Roseman:
One of our brass colleagues told me about that. It goes, and then it stops for a few beats, so you see how true your rhythm is?
Karen Donnelly:
Oh my God, that's so cool. No, I don't know what that is. I got to check that out.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I believe that Jordan told me about that.
Karen Donnelly:
Oh, I better check it out. I know who to talk to. Thank you. No, no, I like to use the metronome a lot. But I would be nice to... I record myself a lot too.
Leah Roseman:
In vibrato, I don't even know how you guys produce it, honestly, if it's diaphragm or chops or what's going on there?
Karen Donnelly:
I notice you ask everybody about vibrato.
Leah Roseman:
Of course, it's huge. It's an obsession of mine.
Karen Donnelly:
Well, that's cool. There are ways to do vibrato, on the trumpet, we can use lip vibrato, so woo, woo, woo, woo, with the lips. You can use hand vibrato, actually moving the thing on your lips, woo, woo, woo. Or a combo of both. You can use the tongue, ta, ya, ya, ya, a little bit. I should explain that in my little performance, I forgot to put my hair elastic around the third slide here. Otherwise, it drops down and actually it will lower the pitch by a tone. So when I was using the mute, I forgot to... So that's why I had to like do a quick...
Leah Roseman:
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Karen Donnelly:
... elastic. Normally that would be in place. That wasn't part of the [crosstalk 00:31:13].
Leah Roseman:
What did they do before elastics? Is it always part of the [crosstalk 00:31:17]?
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah, I think you can hold your instrument up a little higher, because gravity's going to cause that. And if it's a well-functioning slide, which hopefully it is, it's going to slide very sensitively, so to adjust intonation. So I used the first slide to adjust intonation because that one was stabilized by the... Trumpet nerd talk.
Leah Roseman:
Well, and you have many trumpets.
Karen Donnelly:
Oh yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Tell us about your trumpet collection.
Karen Donnelly:
Well, my friends make fun of me. Well, a carpenter needs her tools in the toolbox, so yeah. So I do have maybe like 40 trumpets or something in-
Leah Roseman:
No, I really thought it was a dozen. 40?
Karen Donnelly:
Oh no, no.
Leah Roseman:
Wow.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. I have like... Yeah. Well, we have B-flat trumpet, C trumpet, D, E-flat piccolo, flugelhorn, cornet, rotary trumpet. And then all the families of rotary, B-flat rotary, C rotary, D/Eb rotary. Family of cornet, B-flat cornet, C cornet, E-flat cornet. Then I own several B-flats because there are different models and different sounds and different... So I have a big B-flat that I would use if I was ever playing a big sonata, a German sonata, Haydn Sonata. I would use a heavier B-flat. This is sort of midrange B-flat, that's my normal everyday B-flat. If I'm playing a pop show, I have a very light, smaller bore. So it's much easier to project and play high. I have a B-flat for that. I have the first B-flat, my parents bought me in grade eight or whatever. So things like that.
Karen Donnelly:
And then go through the same thing for C trumpet. I have a nice rotation of C trumpets that are all good. Thankfully for us, trumpets aren't that expensive compared to you guys. You probably spend more on your bow and I spend on one level trumpet.
Leah Roseman:
Probably, yeah.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. So that's why I can have... And they're not all... some of them are... Oh yeah, and the natural trumpet. I play a little bit of natural trumpet, so I have a few of those.
Leah Roseman:
Tell us just a little bit about that, because not everyone understands about that.
Karen Donnelly:
So the history of the trumpet, historically, the instrument didn't have valves. And so a lot of the like music, for example, like Mozart symphonies, Haydn symphonies, Schubert, Schumann, did I say Beethoven? The instrument had no valves, so we could only play... That's why the trumpet is mostly a supportive role, mostly doubling with the timpani. And so we would only be able to play the notes on the harmonic series, the open notes, like. And I just get those notes by adjusting lips and air speed.
Karen Donnelly:
Historically that's why we often play just one note or fanfare. So that's common. And the valve, the first... I mean, they invented this valve, the piston valve, but historically they went through keys, like you'd see on a saxophone, like clapped keys to create. And actually the most famous trumpet Concerto by Haydn, was premiered on a keyed trumpet, so not a valved trumpet. So that was pretty incredible to hear an instrument to be able to play in that range, a diatonic scale, because we would only be able to play the diatonic in the upper notes of the harmonic series because it gets closer together.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Interesting. And I was just thinking like band teachers have to teach all the brass, they'll have to do all that. How different is it for you if you, for fun, try to play tuba or trombone or horn?
Karen Donnelly:
Oh, it's very different. The size of the mouthpiece, the trombone is like for sure that much bigger and tuba is like that. Horn is smaller here, so you've got this whole range. It is the same mechanics. I think it's the same mechanics of playing a viola to a violin maybe. But physically of course you engage a wider vibration that creates the sound on the lips, like trombone mouth would go to here, and a tuba mouth... And because the notes are, the range is lower, the vibrations are slower. But for sure, I theoretically could play all the... I understand, but I did try to play the trombone once, it's hilarious. It requires a lot more air, but it's essentially the same production.
Leah Roseman:
When you chose to play the trumpet, was it the sound or did someone just say we need a trumpet player in the band?
Karen Donnelly:
Well, that's kind of a funny story. Like you mentioned, I come from a big family and my mom had the rule of, we all had to take piano lessons for at least one year, I only did it for one year, and we all had to go in band, grade six. So, because I come from a large family, I'll say we weren't rolling in dough, let's just say that. We weren't starving by any means, but there was definitely a culture of hand me downs and it was just simply ingrained in our being of being a frugal and not wasteful. So when grade six came along, I have a twin sister, that's her right there, and my mom said to us, "Okay, you girls, you're going to join band and you can pick any instrument you want, but just remember, we already have a flute and a trumpet in the house." Because my older siblings played those instruments. Well, that was like, read between the line. So my twin sister picked the flute, so I got stuck with the trumpet and that's how it worked. There you go.
Leah Roseman:
And when you were in university, you didn't start out as a music major.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah, I was a late bloomer to being serious about music. It's funny how, now, as I look back, I've always felt like that was a weakness, but I also think it's a strength that I was a late bloomer because I always had this feeling of I got to catch up, because I did. I mean, I did, I had my first private trumpet lesson was in my second year of university.
Leah Roseman:
Really? Wow.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. You string players are probably... you start when you're young, young, young. But I was lucky my band program in Saskatchewan where I grew up, I mean, it was huge. I had an incredible exposure. I played in the band, in a jazz band, a jazz combo, a brass quintet chamber music. We had a marching band, which is super fun. We had an all honor band, all star band where all the... So I was playing at this, with these... I was playing all the time every day. And so I was developing control just by playing, but the specific technique was very slow. And I actually still struggle to this day. I wish I had somebody rattling every week about this third finger positioning, because that still haunts me and is a main focus. I check that box on the chart every day. And I think if I had had a teacher as a young player, I maybe wouldn't have as much trouble. I don't know.
Karen Donnelly:
But like I said, I had this feeling of like, "Oh my God, I catch up." I didn't even know the repertoire, I didn't know anything. I didn't know a double tongue, I didn't know anything like... Anyway, but that feeling of being curious and always wanting to learn, I feel like has kept me engaged in the job. Whereas perhaps other people would become bored or complacent if they had this intensive study. So yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And there's one more thing I wanted to touch on before we end our conversation is the issue of auditions and excerpts. And I noticed with the Canadian Women's Brass Collective online, it was listed that you had a excerpt competition with the prize money, which is so cool. And the generation I grew up and where I studied at McGill and Indiana, no one was teaching excerpts. As a string player, a lot of us maybe were interested in playing in an orchestra, but no one was teaching that stuff. But for brass players, it's completely different.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. I would say brass and winds. There's a real focus, there's classes dedicated to that. And it's definitely part of the training intense work on... Actually I just recently was doing this online trumpet conference and this guy, famous orchestra principal... one of the big five American orchestras. He's talking about pictures on exhibition. I don't have perfect pitch. Do you have a perfect pitch?
Leah Roseman:
No.
Karen Donnelly:
Anyway, whatever. Dih, duh, duh, duh, ni, duh, dah, dah, dah. So this very famous trumpet excerpt, and he went in this in depth explanation of how he prepares that. Right from he plays the whole excerpt on just the first note. Ni, ni, ni, ni, ni, ni, ni, ni. And then he does it-
Leah Roseman:
Wow.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah. And then he does it on the first... Does a loop. Ni, nu, ni, ni, nu, ni. The loop, just to get super minutiae attention to detail. But I mean, he sounds amazing. I guess that's what we got to do. That's what we do. [crosstalk 00:42:34]
Leah Roseman:
We all work differently, right? Different things work for different people.
Karen Donnelly:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
So you're often on audition panels and I know you've done audition training and coaching. Is there any general advice you'd give to people doing auditions?
Karen Donnelly:
That's a great question. I always advocate, I teach many of us, you got to have the golden three, the trilogy, sound, pitch, rhythm. So if you don't have those blocks, you're done, forget about it. Then once you have those things, then it's the music. Then you got to show this style. Then you got to show your musicianship. Then you got to show that you're willing to say something and take a risk, but you have to have the magic three. Those are hard, hard, hard, harder than it seems, to be consistent. Preparing for months and then in that moment, being able to like... But I will also say my experience of being on a panel is the panel wants you to play well, they want to hear somebody who's awesome. They want you to do well. They want to hire somebody. So I think people think we sit there back, we're there judging or whatever. But I personally feel like it's where they're like this.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. For sure.
Karen Donnelly:
"Come on, let's go. Yeah, show me." Anyway, yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I'm listening for someone I'm thinking, "Wow, I just love to play with them."
Karen Donnelly:
That's the thing. That's what you want. Yeah, I love that.
Leah Roseman:
Well, thanks so much for this conversation. I'm really glad we could make this happen. And I hope to see you-
Karen Donnelly:
Thank you for asking.
Leah Roseman:
... in person soon.
Karen Donnelly:
Absolutely.
Leah Roseman:
Season one of this podcast had 20 episodes and season two continues with a really interesting mix of musicians talking about their lives and careers with perspectives on overcoming challenges, finding inspiration and connection through a life so enriched with music. Please follow this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, to be informed about each new episode.
