Kat Raio Rende: Transcript
Kat Raio Rende:
When you write a melody for a very complex song, like a song, we wrote a song about divorce when Abby's mom and dad, she was talking about them being divorced and having big feelings about it. The song was called Big Feelings. Your melody has to be a child's melody, so they have to be able to sing it if they're thinking about it. It's like when a child dreams or plays, how they're playing simply, but they're playing because they're having such big feelings. So the melody has to be a kid's melody, but the things behind it project the feelings that you really want, the feelings, the real things. And so when you have a complex song, it's important to empathize with the child what they're actually feeling, those feelings they don't have words for and they don't even maybe know they're having like sometimes.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, you're listening to Conversations with Musicians with Leah Roseman. There's such a fascinating variety to a life in music. This series features wonderful musicians worldwide with in-depth conversations and great music. Today's guest is the Emmy winning songwriter singer and producer Kat Raio Rende. Together with her husband, JP Rende, she has a successful songwriting and production company, Earworm Music Company. This episode is a fascinating window into the world of music for children's TV shows, jingles, working with celebrities and music production in general. Kat's infectious delight in music composition and singing as well as her personal story and perspectives as a parent will fascinate listeners everywhere. Like all my episodes, you can listen to this on your favorite podcast player, watch the video on YouTube, read the transcript, and navigate with the timestamps. Please sign up for my weekly newsletter at leahroseman.com and consider supporting this independent podcast with a few dollars. The links are in the description of the episode. Hi Kat, thanks so much for joining me here today.
Kat Raio Rende:
Thanks for having me. I'm excited.
Leah Roseman:
So there's so much to talk about with Earworm Company and your background, and maybe we'll talk a little bit about JP, but I thought it'd be fun to start with a couple of your beautiful Sesame Street projects that I found so inspiring. So you wrote this song that was awarded an Emmy for Billy Porter, so can you talk about that project?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah, Billy Porter's been a big influence of mine for a long time. So when we got the call for the song, I was so excited. I'm like, I'm on this right now. I have been a fan of his since probably Love's On The Way, which he sang for the First Wives Club as a demo for Celine Dion's Love is On the Way. And then it became, his version became so big and he hit all the notes that Celine hit. I had heard her version first, and then my songwriter friend Peter Zizo showed it to me and I was like, this is amazing. And he was like, yeah, she's saying his riffs. When she did the cover of it, she sang everything he did and all those high notes with the exception of the key change. Everything else was like his notes. So I became a super fan of his, and when we got the call to do a song for him, I was so excited and I jumped right in and I'm like, I know what we're going to do.
And Sesame Street has a really good research department where we don't write the lyrics most of the time because it goes through such educational research. The research department makes sure that every lyric in there is accurate, whether it's scientific or psychological or developmental. Everything is screened. So most of the time there's a lyricist. So Ken Scarborough just did the lyrics for the song and we're like, we have to make this a Billy Porter song, a song that he can sink his teeth into. And so as a songwriter, you just close your eyes and you try to become them as a writer respectfully, of course. And so we took his latest album and just went for it. And when he sang it and he put his all into it and it came back, I'm like, oh my God, this is just amazing. We wrote his style chords and his style instrumentation, and it was this beautiful song about inclusion, and he wore his Met Gala gown for the video and it just stood there and all his Billy Porter Glory with this amazing piece of fashion on, and it really was something special I thought.
Leah Roseman:
And this was a new thing for the Emmys to have a kids sort of section or special awards.
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah, it was the first time it was the kids and family Emmys,
Leah Roseman:
And they seemed to really focus on diversity in that.
Kat Raio Rende:
Definitely. And there has been such a gigantic influx of kids programming, programming in general because of streaming, but kids programming where you could focus on a very specific type of character or concept or whatever. Whereas in the past growing up, I had Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers, and that was kind of it, I mean there was a few other things of course, but because of this just amazing amount of programming, they had their own Emmys. And so there was so much really great, there were some really good shows that were nominated, Sneakerella that was a really great show where it was a little bit Cinderella, but it was based on actual, I believe the person was making sneakers. But the songs are amazing. And so there were so many different shows, a very specific concepts that were included in the Emmy's this year. It was so cool.
Leah Roseman:
Here's a short audio clip of Billy Porter singing Friends With a Penguin. The original Sesame Street video is linked in the show notes. This song won the Emmy award for outstanding original song in the 2022 Children's and Family Emmy Awards composed by Kat Raio Rende and JP Rende. (Music)
Leah Roseman:
Well, congratulations on that award.
Kat Raio Rende:
Thanks.
Leah Roseman:
And there's this beautiful video you created a song for, let's see, We Don't Walk Alone.
Kat Raio Rende:
I think that might be my favorite Sesame song we do. I'm not sure. It was a song about violence and the kid's by himself, and he's one by one after he is talking about how he's feeling alone and sad. One by one visually, each character comes into the frame and then all of a sudden the whole community stands with them with him. And we wanted to make the song sonically like that as well. So it starts out just him, and then all of a sudden the music gets bigger and bigger and bigger and the harmonies get more gigantic and all of a sudden it's this full production, whereas it's a very small, almost folk like song at the beginning. And it was so nice to do that because most of the time JP and I, when we work for Sesame Street are writing as pop writers.
But this time we got to do more of a theatrical version of our pop songs. And within that genre, you can really go back and forth and the song starts in the beginning as this unsure. There's almost an uncertain key of the song, uncertain mode and uncertain a whole tone back and forth. I don't know how I feel. And then as it gets bigger and bigger, it becomes more centered and it's key, but also a little bit more complex in the instrumentation and in the lush harmonies and stuff. And it became this, you are assured by your family and your community that you literally are not alone. You are supported. And that's how we get by. And so that Sesame recently has been a big thing. We did another one about father specifically taking care of their kids emotionally, which a lot of times, even though it happens, people don't focus on it, shows don't focus on it. And I think that many shows recently have shown the fathers emotionally taking care of their kids. And the big takeaway from that is that having people, having community is really important growing up.
Leah Roseman:
Here's a short audio clip of Sesame Street's "We Don't Walk Alone" composed by Kat Raio Rende and JP Rende. The Sesame Street video is linked in the show notes. (music)
Child:
Sometimes I feel like I'm all alone just walking by myself, just out here on my own.
Big Bird:
But here I am, and I'll take your hand, I'll walk right by your side and help you understand and that you are not alone. I'll walk next to you.
Child:
I thought I was just one,
Big Bird:
But now we both are two and we're not alone. You walk here with me,
Elmo:
Elmo alks along with you together. We are three
Ensemble:
And we're
Not alone. We walk
Hand in hand
We're stronger altogether. And now we understand
That we're not alone. There are so many more.
If we all walk together then our group turns into four.
And we're not alone.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. That video We Do Not. Sorry. Yeah, We Don't Walk Alone. I've showed it to quite a few friends and family and every time I tear up, it's so beautiful. And I'll link both of these. Anything that we don't include, I'll try to include in the show notes so people can check them out.
Kat Raio Rende:
Oh, cool. Thanks.
Leah Roseman:
Now you said we could include some music from Baby Shark.
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah. Yeah. We can include, there's a few songs that I like. I really like all silly songs. They're all fun and silly and I call them, I call 'em neurospicy because I'm a little neurospicy. But they always describe the songs and the briefs as left of center because they're all like when you listen to My Little Pony, and that's fun and exciting in its own way when they use the term Every Pony, it's funny because it's sweet and funny and related to its show, but when you say every fishy or everything that relates to fish is just generally so gross that it creates every time you talk about the fish world. It's funny, we have a lot of, let me think of what it is. What's that? What's that smell? It smells like Keoni every time you talk about stinky fish or fish in general.
It's funny. And so the show leans into it, and of course the Baby Shark brand is, everyone knows Baby Shark. So we wanted to kind of make the music a little bit number. Well obviously keep it catchy, but also have its own personality. And I think doing the funny, crazy version of music with this show was the right way to go. So we did a few songs that were really fun. One was with Cardi B called Seaweed Sway, where Cardi B Baby Shark can do things that other shows can't do because it's gigantic, number one and number two, because it's allowed to be its own thing because it's just a funny show in general. You can have Cardi B on it. And when she came on, she really did it. She really cared about what she was doing. She did it right, in my opinion, she really cared.
And I know of course celebrities care, but you just expect them to like, oh, it's a kid's show, let's do it and move on. But she got into the studio and when she was on that mic, she was on and she cared and she recorded her daughter and her husband was on it. It was cool. It was really cool. So she did that song a Seaweed Sway, and she was teaching everybody dance like her and be like her and say, you are who you are, and don't apologize for it. Just be you and do it your own way. So that was a really fun song, Seaweed Sway. And then we did some other really fun ones. There was this song at the end of season one called Flow On, and it was this wild, almost phantom of the opera style production that the theatrical character Goldie was putting on.
And it turned out that the character, Hank, who was supposed to play the lead was so nervous about playing the lead that he sabotaged the whole thing. And in the end, when it was time for the song, he was like the first character who became the lead, said, this is my chance to have my moment in the sun. This is to concessions are for Hank. And then Hank, who is at the concession stand, is giving his concession is apologizing. This is my chance to really say, sorry, this is my chance to sell delicious snacks. And it goes on to be this big. It's almost similar to, We Don't Walk Alone in the sense that it becomes bigger and bigger, but it becomes celebratory and fun. And all the characters who have all their motives, they each have this motive, this lesson that they learned in the show.
The show will flow on, flow on meaning go on and say what you want to say instead of holding your feelings. And in that way, the show has, they call it, they have have lessons in the show, but they do it so fun, which I really like.
Leah Roseman:
And are you singing on any of those tracks in Baby Shark?
Kat Raio Rende:
Oh yeah. Yeah. I sing all the backup vocals for our songs in the show. And so there's a song where William Baby's best friend William, who's a pilot fish, he decides that he's going to be a big boy, a big fishy now, and he wants to become an adult. So he asks all the characters in the show to help him to do what it would take for him to be mature. And so finally he reveals himself as Bill. He's like, I'm not William anymore. And from now on, call me Billy. And we have this big rap song and I sing the chorus, I sing the choir. They're like, oh, I'm so grown. And I sing that. I sing backups on kind of everything in the show. I mean all my songs, at least our songs. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
So when you're writing with JP , so you guys have a company together, but you're also married and have children. Do you help each other with writer's blocks? Do you always apportion the work in a certain way? How do you do that with different projects?
Kat Raio Rende:
Oh yeah. It has refined over the years because in the beginning we used to sit in a room and decide to do the whole thing together and fight every time fight. And that's because we're married, right? We each have the same dynamic at home. And not that we fight at home, we actually don't, but we have this I'll because we do the same thing and because our schedules are crazy and erratic, and most of the time we get a song on Monday and it's due on Friday or a song on Friday and it's due the next Friday. Or if it's a jingle, the song on Monday, and we need to by Wednesday night or Tuesday night even. So JP and I decide who the song is best, decide who's going to take the song at the first. And at home we do the same thing, like, okay, I'm going to be doing this.
So you do the dishes, you take the kids to school, and there's really no, I know there's really no schedule at home so much. He brings the kids to school and I pick them up and we kind of have it, but dinner, who knows who's going to make dinner? Who knows? And we do the same thing in songwriting. So JP and I will look at the song on, let's say we get it on Friday night and it's due the next Friday. So Friday we'll say, okay, you start the song. And a lot of times, for example, with Baby Shark, I'll start the song because that's just how it's happened. That's how it's become over the three seasons.
So I'll take it on Friday, dream about it somehow. There's always a dream. The song always starts with a dream in the middle of the night and wake up, write it down, and then it's fun. It's like a puzzle. You don't know what's going to start at first. So sometimes there's a lyric or sometimes there's a chorus, a full chorus, depending on whatever you dream about or whatever is there. Then I'll start it. I'll do as much as makes sense. Sometimes it's the whole song. Sometimes it's, Hey Jay, what's, can you come here and check this out? What is this? And then if I don't do the whole song, he'll take it and he'll say, oh, well, this needs to be truncated. Oh, this needs to be expanded upon. And the same thing goes for the other songs. But the times that we are together, it does work more now it than it would in the past because we'll say, okay, well this works. But it has to, like I said, it has to be truncated, it has to be expanded upon. It has to be more complex, has to be simpler. And we have a few projects that mostly me, mostly him, but we always kind of touch everything I would say.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, just a quick break from the episode. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need my listeners' help. Please consider buying me a coffee. The link to my Kofi page is in the description. Every dollar helps me cover the costs of this huge project. Thanks so much. Do you harmonize after you write melody for the most part
Kat Raio Rende:
Vocally?
Leah Roseman:
Well, just in terms of the composition,
Kat Raio Rende:
Do the two of us harmonize? No, you mean I
Leah Roseman:
Do you write the harmonies under the melody? Oh, the harmonies.
Kat Raio Rende:
Oh no. If it's a duet and there are harmonies, we're working on a song for Baby Shark right now where it's Hank and his dad taking a solo in the middle of a big group number. That song I, when it's a duet, and I think there's a duets are really interesting for me right now because I've been doing deep dives into different duets because a lot of times duets have key changes because the two characters are not meshing. They don't have the exact same range, so they can't all be in the same range. But this particular song, so I like them because they don't have the same range. Hank is kind of up here and his dad is more of a tenor, so it's so fun to make their harmonies both melodies as opposed to third under or an octave under or something. It's so nice for them to feel like they're both important. But generally, if the song's due Friday, Thursday is when all my background vocals go into it, and if the characters are singing backup as well, their harmonies will go into it. And I wrote, I have their ranges down, but their ranges, if you can really imagine that you're singing as them their ranges, and you will make it so that the placement of the vocal will be their range usually.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. It's interesting. You answered a different question than I meant to ask, but it was so much more
Kat Raio Rende:
So sorry.
Leah Roseman:
Much more interesting than what I was going to ask, which was just about chord progressions. But actually that was leading what you're talking about leads me, I was curious because when you're writing for let's say puppets or animated characters, often it's one person does several characters, so the way they sing those different characters will be different. And you also act as a vocal coach, correct?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah. Yeah. And one thing I learned early on as a vocal coach is that the actor's range is different than the character's range. And whether that - it's not because of necessity, although that also plays into it, the necessity is that it won't sound like the character. But also if the character is here - for example, Kimiko Glenn plays Baby Shark. My mind is on Baby Shark right now. Kimiko Glenn plays Baby Shark and he's a boy. And so when she goes up here beyond Baby's Range, it starts to sound not like Baby anymore. It starts to sound not just feminine, which is who cares, but it becomes a different personality. And that's what a great voice actor will do. A voice actor will have many characters because they'll take 10 parts of their voice and say, this is this character, this is this character. And then underneath it's starts to not only not sound like Baby, but also just lacks Baby's energy. And so it's very important to write within their range. And they have a meaty range, and they have little, if they do backgrounds, they could do a little bit more, but you really should stay in the middle of a character's range, and then it makes the song sound 10 times better.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Now you grew up singing harmony with your family?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah. My dad and I and my brother used to sing. We used to sing Doobie Brothers songs and Beach Boys songs as well in the car. He really liked those two bands. And I do too. We would sing In my room. (singing) "There's a world where I can go and tell my secrets to". And it was cool. And we didn't do it. It wasn't a lesson or anything. My dad liked to sing harmonies and stuff, and I guess it became a little of an obsession. I loved harmonies and writing crazy harmonies. We grew up in a Catholic school and they had a choir, so I would write for the choir, and the choir would be like, "we don't do that".
The choir director would be like, Catholic music is as is, and it's not. It's just a thing that Catholic music is, and it stays generally the same. It's not like people, I don't know. I know a lot of other religions can do versions of things, but I noticed that at least in my church growing up, they were like, has to stay. Okay, cool. But I wrote this version of We three Kings or something, and it would just be this lots of harmonies kind of thing. And we also did madrigals in high school, which is full of harmony. And it's so fun to, this is nerdy but ,I think it's so much fun to lock into what your harmony is. And especially within madrigals. Madrigals are like, here, I'm going to do this. Well, you do this and it's so hard to stay there. But it helped. I did backup vocals for a lot of artists, and I love that. I don't know why, but it's so much fun to sync with people.
Leah Roseman:
So if I understand the progression of your life, so you went back, you met JP at SUNY Purchase, but before you did that degree, you had this career as a backup singer with big names and big TV shows. Can you describe how that went in your motivation?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah. When I was younger, let me think about this. I met JP in college and in high school I started, I fell into this Team 11 thing where we were on the WB Network in New York. And the afternoon you would be listening to Animaniacs or watching what else was on Animaniacs. And there were two or three other shows that were so that I watched every day. So when there was something in my high school, they're like, just audition for this. I happened to get it. I was not a professional kid. So I had that. And then started, I was started by doing demos for songwriters. There was a local studio that had Carl Sturken and Evan Rogers. They wrote, God must Have Spent a Little More Time on You. And they wrote, they've discovered Rihanna.
They're very, very fun. They wrote for a bunch of boy bands and Christina Aguilera and Britney Spears. And so I would do demos for them. And then someone from the record label that they were working on, they were like, I want her on all our demos. So she sent my name out to everybody at, I think it was Sony Epic at the time. And so I started singing for all these people and got to learn how songs came out and learn who was doing what at the time. It was so cool doing that. So when I got to college as a songwriter, I hadn't done much songwriting outside of my own. I hadn't done any professional songwriting. That's what I meant to say. I've written my own stuff. And so when I met JP, he was a writer, and I would just sing his demos. And then we started working together and it was very hard to collaborate.
I don't know why, but everyone at SUNY Purchase was also songwriters, and there was a lot of folk music and indie music that was coming out of that. Regina Spector came out of there. And there was a few other very, very talented songwriters that were there. And so when I got the call to write for Sesame Street, I was like, JP, you need to come in. Because him and I, even though we fought every time we were together, every time we were write, it was just because both of us were really, really confident about these ideas. And so Damien would be like, no, that's not right. We need to do better. Or I'd be like, this needs to be more X, Y, Z.
But it always worked the best. My songs were good, his songs were good, but our songs together were something else, really, really, I think good songs. And so we started writing for Sesame Street in 2008, and from that point on, everything we did was together. I loved jingles and doing nerdy things. So I hunted down this, I begged her this very talented jingle singer, Emily Benninger, to bring me into the world of jingles. So we started writing jingles and I sang a bunch of them as well. And just everything started from there. And then once JP came into the full JP, he's a really good people person, and he's a really good business person, and he knew to keep at these people and Hey, we're still available. Hey, we're still around. And because of that, the two of us worked really well, and we started getting stuff by finding it as well as being handed things sometimes just because we were the songwriters that were in town at the time, or we were the songwriters that were around at the time.
Leah Roseman:
That brings up a whole bunch of things, but just in terms of understanding your career, so I mean, you were very busy. You were singing for The Tonight Show, you're singing for Alicia Keys, and that must've taken so much time. So that was before you started Earworm company?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yes and no. The Tonight Show specifically was after, actually I was seven months pregnant when I did my first Tonight Show performance, but I mean a backup performance, sorry. A lot of these things just, I don't know how to explain how they happen. I guess it's just talking to people and maybe it's just like, you know how women are always, I don't know. It just happened. But you actually did work for things. I don't know if it was that, I don't know. But I was, I was recording one of my songs before I met JP, but I was in the same school, and I went to a professional studio to record a song that I had written, and I wanted that, a big studio sound, I think. So I went to a studio, and at that studio in Connecticut, there was a musical director, and he was recording a jingle, so I was singing, and in the break room, he said, yeah, I just came off of a working with Whitney and Michael Jackson. And I'm like, no. Anyway, I kept eating my lunch and he kept talking, and I'm like, these people in a studio in Connecticut, you don't think that they're there? Maybe that's, I dunno.
When he said, Hey, I need a singer for this jingle, will you do it? I'm like, yeah, of course, no problem. So I go in and I record the jingle for him, and then he said, I work for David Guest who is a big concert - He has a big concert company, and would you consider singing in it? I was like, of course. Of course. So I was 19 year old, five foot two white girl, and I was with the biggest singers in New York at the time who were singing backup. And I got there, I'm like, oh my God, it's Paddy Jenkins. Oh my God, it's Michael McElroy. Oh my God, all these gigantic backup singers. And it was like the coolest, it was the coolest just to walk into a room with these mega, mega talented people who you knew from Broadway and from just knowing who they were hearing talk about them. And so I was doing that when I met JP.
Leah Roseman:
So the harmonies in those kind of situations, is it all written out or are people
Kat Raio Rende:
No, no. I was talking with a friend the other day about this when I was doing it, and it was 2003 I think when I was working on that stuff. I assumed that everybody was going to get lead sheets, and sometimes we did. Of course, there was a time when Mariah Carey was going to be at Madison Square Garden to possibly sing, and they were like, here's the sheet music. You've got to do your part. You're this, you're second soprano, you're this. But there were also times when, about half the time, we just kind of picked our harmonies because these singers are top of their craft, their musical, they have an ear. And so they would say, since these songs are already well-known and well-recorded here, listen to this. And you take the second harmony, you take the second brown, you take this. And so by the time we got to rehearsal, we all knew what we were doing, and it really only took a couple of passes to work out any kinks in case somebody went on top of each other's note what a wild experience it is to be 19 and just be like, what?
This is what you expect me to do. And also because of just being a nerd thinking that you weren't going to be able to do it, but then you just do it. It's like the best trial by fire thing because of course, the new person that comes in, they were like, who is this person? And why are they here? They don't know, nobody. Why? Why? It's the coolest? It's the most fun. It's the most fun you can have, I think. No, the most fun I can have. And so there was also one time when we had done at least two rehearsals for each song for a, I think it wasn't the Grammy's, it was another Miracle on 34th Street concert at Madison Square Garden. And we had a 40 piece orchestra, and they were singing songs that you would hear on the radio, but you're actually just playing them live, which is fun.
And at the time, a lot of artists, a lot of their songs were in the box, meaning there were not a lot of live players on it. So it was cool to make those songs something. But anyway, in this particular show, Gloria Gaynor, the day of the show came in and she's like, instead of doing I'll Survive, I'm going to do, I Am What I Am. I think that's the song, or a woman - It was something that she just decided to change. So the singers was like, cool, no problem. And they just shoot and learn their spots, learn their parts. All of our parts. There were five or six of us, and everyone just knew what to do. It was the coolest. It was so fun doing that stuff because I don't know, I think there's nothing immediate. You have to do this right now, or it'll sound like crap. Go.
Leah Roseman:
I'm trying to wrap my head around. Of course, you had a highly developed ear, but when you're listening at that time, when you're first starting to do it, Kat, could you really pick out the second soprano very easily?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah, I think at the time right now, songs, there are so many layers, and because everybody's in studio 2003 was a funny time, and I don't know if it's still like this. I think we'd all be able to do it anyway. But back in 2001 to 2003 or 2004, I think that was the major time of that band. It was people singing as if they were singing live, but singing a track. So for example, it was as if you were in a band and you would sing one part and you would know where it goes. I think now even when I write my background vocals, sometimes I write parts that are jumping in or sometimes parts there that stay the same and then they move. So I think that these people could do it now too, but back then you can kind of hear each singer individually.
And I think that's something, I don't know if everyone, I know a lot of people, I have ADHD, and I know a lot of people with ADHD hear the reason that things are confusing for them sometimes, at least a big group of us, is that we hear all things that are going on. So you're hearing the buzz of the cash register or the buzz of the fan and you're hearing - when we're at home, I hear both my kids talking and what they're both saying, and I hear what I'm saying, and I kind of hear what the person who's talking to me is saying. But if you hear it and you could pick each one of those things out at the same time as a musician, you can kind of pick all the harmonies out or all the baselines or all the drum patterns.
Leah Roseman:
That's really interesting about ADHD, because I think often people just think of it as a disability and they don't realize these special talents you might have.
Kat Raio Rende:
I hate to be labeled as a person, ADHD is a super power thing, but I think sometimes it can be, and it depends on the person and depends on how they were raised. But I think for me personally, it's the problem and the answer. The problem is that if you hear all these things at once, you just, it's overwhelming, and that's where everything falls apart. And also because everything is catching your ear, the next thing is interesting more than what's right in front of you. So it's also how I think my career works because I don't work in a full album or a full this or that. I work in a series and I work in multiple series. So you'll start off writing a quirky Baby Shark song, and then you'll move to a highly educational and also musically super super like what's on the radio right now or not, just depending on what the song is for Sesame Street.
And then we'll move to Tab time. And Tabitha Brown, who has a really amazing show that is almost similar to I would say, Mr. Rogers, she's got a magical personality, and her show is a comprehensive lesson. Each show her is calm music, complex music, and just super emotional music. And then jingles. Jingles are whacky and crazy and everything has to be thrown at you right away. And each part of the 30 seconds that you get has to catch your ear. And I think that's what allows us, allows me personally to be able to move from one thing to another, because if something isn't working, you move on to the next one and then you move back.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I was going to ask you about writing jingles. I know you do a lot of that, and I was curious, does JP reflect back to you like, Hey, we already wrote that. You know what I mean?
Kat Raio Rende:
Oh God, all the time. No, he doesn't. I do sometimes I realize like, oh my God, I thought that was, so sometimes a melody will be catchy, and I'll think that we wrote it before because I think good melody sometimes feel like you already knew it, but sometimes I'm like, I definitely rip myself off, but I don't know, what did we rip off? Did we rip off ourselves? Or JP will send me something and be like, oh, well that happens to be this melody for something else. But we do check each other. And that's, I think something that's really important. I used to work for a musicologist named Sandy Wilber, who, she was actually the person who did the blurred lines case with Robin Thicke. There was a gigantic copyright infringement case between Robin Thicke and the Marvin Gaye estate where their song got to give it up was, it was such a wild thing because copyrighted music, you think of it as music and lyrics and music and lyrics are the proof when you're in a copyright case that you intended to sound like this other song.
But this case and got to give it up, the music, the lyrics and the melody were not the same, but clearly they were trying to rip it off. And actually, there was an article in maybe Variety Magazine where they had to prove, he said, we wanted to sound like Got to Give it Up by Marvin Gaye, and that's why he lost the case. But anyway, so having worked with Sandy Wilbur, we always know when we are accidentally infringing. And so writing kids' music, it's important to sound like something you would hear on the radio, but it can't actually be that, although I think you do get a little bit more leeway because it's kids' music, they're okay if, for example, a song parody that you're writing to sort of sound like a song on purpose so that the parents would understand, the parents would be like, oh, yeah, that's supposed to be X, y, z.
Leah Roseman:
So you were mentioning Sandy Wilbur, the musicologist. What work did you do for her?
Kat Raio Rende:
I at, I don't even know how I heard about it. I think it was through somebody at college at the time. It was in the transition to all digital music. So she had this whole CDs upon CDs upon her job was to know all the music there is out there to know if it was like jingle companies or Jingle houses would send her their songs, and pretty much all of them. We got so many, and it's also one of the reasons I became obsessed with jingles because I was listening to them all the time, but also knowing the names of all those companies, I'd be like, Hey, I want to work for you. Hey, I want to, so she would get these jingles and the companies knew that they wanted to sound like this song, and they would say, okay, the reference is this is too close.
And so we would go in and of course she would know intrinsically, she would know it was or was not, but she had to show it and she would say, well, this part is too close. And sometimes she would show me, here's the two melodies and their shapes of them on the sheet music or the lead sheet would go, they're both going down here and then they're both continuing. There was one time we were putting something against Barry White's Love Unlimited, I think it was called the Love Unlimited Orchestra. There was a string, a string section that went, I think you know that song, I just don't remember the title of it. And we were listening to a pop song that was out there to see if they sampled it, and she showed it to me visually, you can pull out the wave form and you can see that there are water, not an actual imprinted watermark on purpose, although people have been doing that since. But you could see that the wave form not only looked like it, but when you pulled it apart, even the actual wave form was exactly the same, and it could be sped up. We had to slow it down, we had to pitch it. But once you got there, those patterns were all the same. And that's how you proved that it was an actual sample. So cool. Wow. It was so interesting to work for a musicologist, and it was so helpful being in music to know musicology.
Leah Roseman:
Very interesting. I was just thinking your parents, you and JP, and in terms of looking back on you grew up what in the nineties? So things have changed in terms of the audience for what you might call all ages shows or people call kids shows because a lot of adults love Baby Shark and lots of other shows, Sesame Street. And it used to be that families would watch things together and now we're like the headphone culture. So parents don't necessarily hear what their kids are listening to or watching even young children.
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah, definitely. Well, I should say, I think half the parents are watching with the kids in any specific age because for example, my two kids who are six going on seven and five, they just turned five. We are watching with them because we know that there's so much stuff on YouTube that you'll accidentally come across something that is, Ella came across something where they were burying her mother and it was a kid's show, but I think it was from another country that frankly they just showed more talked about more than we, I think that we do generally. And so if I had known that, I would've been able to talk to her about it. But that was the last day that we did that.
But I think as you get older, kids are definitely watching more on their tablets and by themselves because everybody gets a screen, so you don't need that family tv. But that's interesting because there's also the explosion of the kids series, which means that there's a series. If there's, I'm thinking of all things that are coming up that I can't talk about, but there are so many series where you have something specific and you can watch it, whereas your brother or sister may not want to watch it. They're not interested in that very specific thing. But after all that, right now, right at this moment, networks and streaming networks are paring back. So it's actually for some, I think it's mostly because if you spread this much viewership into this many shows, each is only getting a small viewership, obviously. And I don't think they were making the money that they thought they would be making, so they're actually consolidating it again. And so now we are about to go into a place where it's a family show, so it's for all ages, all children and parents.
So I don't know what is going to happen now, but in terms of how we write at the moment for specific kids shows, so fun about it because not everybody watches quirky shows and not everybody watches very emotional shows. And that's so fun about being a writer right now. I imagine that if you were writing, if all the songs were to sound the same, it would not be nearly as fun. And if all the shows were written by the same person, it would not be as fun. So I really enjoy being in the same style, rather, I really enjoy writing for different styles.
Leah Roseman:
So there's someone in my family who's a huge Pokemon fan, and I would be remiss if I didn't ask you. So you sang on the Pokémon Rival Destiny's theme song?
Kat Raio Rende:
I did. I sang on a couple of them. I sang that and black and white. And actually my friends sang, my friends Jason and Katie sang on the original Pokémon theme song, super talented, both of them. And they were also gigantic session singers from New York. Yeah, it's so cool. I didn't realize there are people that contacted me via Instagram via mail, I mean email. And they're like, Hey, I love this. And I'm like, oh my God, how did you know about it? But there's such a big viewership of Pokémon, and I love it too. I listen to it a lot. Sometimes we do little parodies of that for other shows, which is so fun. I love that dramatic music.
Leah Roseman:
So even though you guys have a well-established company, you still have to pitch, right?
Kat Raio Rende:
Totally. I think we know a bunch of the songwriters that are out there, and we all have to pitch. And I don't know if it's like that for everyone, for every, I don't know if it's like that for every part of the music business. I hope not. But I know that because we're writing shorter songs that they're like, well, show us what you got. I guess it's part of the job, I guess they think they're getting the best product. But I find that there's a difference in writing what you know have and what you think you might lose. And one is that you're writing something that you know that if it doesn't go final, because everybody, no one has the a hundred percent success rate in a pitch, especially when they're blind, because you don't know who is competing against you, and you're always competing against your friends, by the way.
Which is cool because you always go back at the end, be like, what did you write? What did you write? You? When you write a pitch, you're writing a pitch so that it sounds like something, one that you can use again, if it doesn't get placed. So even though it's specific, you can change the lyrics. Of course two, you're writing something that is specifically catchy that you feel like it is going to be different from the other pitches that are out there. Whereas when you write on a song that you have been given, I think you have to put more effort into it because it's something that is an actual product. There's not going to be a bunch of rounds or anything like that where you have to, it's just you give it what it actually needs for the show. And I think that the one where you're given it, if you care about it, is the one that's going to be the better product. But everybody pitches no matter what.
Leah Roseman:
So does JP play different instruments on these tracks in terms of your production?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah, I play keys. I play some accordion, some melodica. I'm teaching myself guitar, and I produce in the box, of course. And I do that mostly for Baby Shark. And then JP plays, he plays a bunch of brass instruments, and he plays specifically the trombone, and he has a bajillion guitars on his side. And of, we have two different studios because again, we write differently on purpose. He plays the harmonica, he plays, he just picks up instruments, which I think is so cool. Anytime he sees something that is in a, there's a website called Pay It Forward, where if you're done with something, you put it out there, and then if somebody wants it or to buy it or to take it, they'll do that. So he's always bringing home fun instruments and now we have a big collection of them. Cool. Just so fun.
Leah Roseman:
So excuse my ignorance, but you said I produce in the box, you mean explain what you meant by that.
Kat Raio Rende:
Well, especially with the very quick turnaround things I have in my sessions when I open up Pro Tools, I have, and we always work in Pro Tools, not because it's better, but because it's, when there are short deadlines, you have to go into Pro Tools anyway for broadcast. So we work in pro tools to begin with. I have a thing where I have MIDI instruments and then live instruments, and I have a set of MIDI instruments and a set of live instruments. And so of course, a lot of things recently are synth based, so you have all that which will stay, and some of the acoustic instruments will get replaced once they're finalized. But with quick turnarounds, it's always easier for sure to keep it in the box. So usually we have live guitars and we have, sometimes we'll hire players, but most of the time when it's a very quick turnaround, we have to keep some of it in the box. In the box, meaning in samples, the computer box, not samples, but mid instruments. Oh, sample the instruments, yes. Yeah,
Leah Roseman:
I understand.
Kat Raio Rende:
And synths and things like that.
Leah Roseman:
So all those things, but in the, yeah, got it. Now,
Kat Raio Rende:
Okay. Yeah, yeah. We have some cool bass sounds, which we replace half the time, but sometimes you want that sound, you want that in the box sound for, depending if the project calls for it, of course.
Leah Roseman:
And you're always recording many different voices. Do you manipulate your own voice when you're producing to get it to go lower or different kind of qualities? Oh yeah.
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah. We use a plugin called morphoder I think it's called morphoder, where it is - We have a few things. We have a talk box where you sing into it and it has the tube that comes out, and you can make that a, who does it a lot, DAF Punk, like that sound a robotic vocal coded sound. But we also have this thing called morphoder I think it's called morphoder. I have to check it out, where you'll sing something and you'll play MIDI notes and it will play the MIDI notes in your voice. So it's meant to sound different. A lot of people when there's not a lot of time will sing one harmony and then move it to sound like them. I don't particularly do that, but I do it for effect, and it's so cool. It sounds like you can really mess with it and really get it to sound however you want it. You can get it to sound like a pad that has, you could make it sound like words, but also sound like a pad, or you can make it sound any way you want. You can make it sound like brass. You can make it sound like a crazy synth. And that is so much fun, especially in backup vocals. Okay.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Just to wrap up about the pitch, I'm just curious. So for young people starting out, if they don't have this whole production thing that you do, it's expensive. You're not paid to pitch, right? You have to just
Kat Raio Rende:
No, you're not paid to pitch. No, but I think it is important, and I think it's why it's a young person's game to start out when you're young, but depending on what, it has to be a hobby, if it's not, because you have to really put a lot of time into it and you have to put a lot of time. But the one good thing, it's money, but it's not as much money as it used to be. But I tell people who are just starting out, who are songwriters that you should have a recording set up because you can't just walk around playing things for people. And you can't pitch it that way and won't. A lot of times people will not accept a piano vocal because essentially it's part of the gig. You have to be a producer. You have to know a singer that you can hire all the time and pay them, but not get paid for it.
And you have to do, you have to produce, you have to mix, you have to compose, you have to harmonize, you have to sing, you have to do all the things yourself. So I would say it's really important to have a recording set up. And I found some really great products that are cheap, that are, you don't have to go to a studio every time. I had a friend that would always go to the studio to produce and record and write, and that would be so expensive. So fortunately I found condenser Mic by Blue. I don't know if they make this particular one anymore before, anymore rather. But there was a Blue Spark digital mic that was $150 and it sounded nearly as good as this. It was a fantastic, it's a fantastic condenser mic that's USB powered, and you can record on a tablet, but obviously you need the USB connection.
I don't know, I haven't done it in a while, but it was my travel setup for a while. And then you can also get a $50 keyboard and you can get a $200 computer and you can work. You can't work in GarageBand, but a lot of the programs are pay by month. They're subscription based. So if you can get yourself that kind of a setup and just play, just practice and try to emulate what you hear of the ways, one of the things that we really enjoyed and that kept us up to date was when we were working for Kids Bop. I used to sing for Kids bop. And we also do kids bop tracks every once in a while. And it's so fun because you literally have to go in and say, what is the producer doing on the drums? What are they doing on the synths? How are they played? Are they manipulated in any way? In finding those things, in emulating a song that already exists. You can teach yourself production, and that's one thing that doesn't inherently come because you can produce in a studio and know what you want, but to actually be able to do it in the box, you have to just practice and practice and practice. And so I think that's a good way to start. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I was curious in terms of boundaries with your home life and these tight deadlines, how do you guys manage to keep it all together?
Kat Raio Rende:
It's harder to do in the summer, I can tell you that. No, when they're in camp and when they're in school, it is helpful. It's helpful to have deadlines. For me, it's very helpful to have deadlines. And those deadlines include being done. One of us being done by 3:30 when they get out of school, actually, they go to an afterschool program sometimes when the work is a lot, especially when we were working last year, we were working on six shows at once, and so that was a lot. And it was constantly like a rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. But those quick deadlines are very helpful because don't have, nothing is precious. Sometimes your best, especially when it comes to pop music, sometimes your first idea is your best and you don't know it until you had to accept it. But I think at this point, we have a schedule Monday we think about the song and we start with the first item that we love Tuesday. The second thing, whether it's lyrics like hashing out the lyrics, Wednesday, we do the production Thursday, we do the background vocals on Friday, we mix and send.
It's helpful to know that you have a deadline. So the kids, I try to make it so that at that time, when they come home for them, and mostly for me, I separate church and state, I go upstairs and I'm done, and I can actually walk up the steps. It is helpful to have separation, and that goes for talking about music, JP. And I'll be like, okay, we're not talking about this. It's great. It's terrible, whatever it is, but we'll talk about it tomorrow at nine o'clock after the kids are in school. And I think that's very important. We love it. And we're both want to talk about it all the time. We love music and I love saying quirky things that are really funny or puns or whatever, or, oh, that chord change is so cool. The key change is so cool, but we stop. We talk about it tomorrow at nine o'clock.
Leah Roseman:
And how are you managing music education for your kids? I mean, they're still young, but have you talked about it?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah, yeah. We talk about a lot because my daughter was really, really talented. My son is younger and he walks around singing things all the time, and he literally, there was no end to him singing. And my mom used to say the same thing about me that I would sing all the time nonstop. And she'd be like, she never made fun of me. She's never told me to stop or made, got annoyed by it. But she told me how much it was crazy as an adult. And I'm like, oh, I thought you liked that. I'm sorry more. I didn't know you heard that. I didn't know you cared. I didn't know that. I don't know. I wasn't very self aware back then, but I know that they're doing that now. And so the problem is with kids, when I say, Ella, do you want a voice lesson or something?
She'll be like, yeah, yeah, cool. But then she'll get there and she'll be like, no, I'm good. I'm going to go play this or that. And so we're trying to figure out ways to do it. One thing that helps a lot is if she'll sing around the house, and then I'll be like, it sounds really good. I'll notice that she'll continue doing it. But there was one time where she was teaching herself to play the Inside Out theme. Do you know the Pixar movie Inside Out with the character's, Joy, Sadness. They're all personified. Yeah. So she was playing the theme Riley's theme, and I was like, okay, I can't mess this up. I do something. I want to help her, but I'm not going to directly help her. She doesn't like that. So I took my iPad with the song on it. I noticed that she was starting to slow down a little bit, and I put it there.
I was like, here if you want it. And I walked away. She stopped. She knew. She's like, I'm not doing this. She knows I'm doing it. I'm not doing it. I think as latchkey kids, when we were little, we were allowed to just be by ourselves and nobody kind of bothered us. And kids don't get that so much these days. So I'm trying to stay away and let them really enjoy it themselves. But they're doing it. They're doing it on their own. She's teaching. She taught herself things on piano that I didn't know at that time, and she's teaching. And Benny's like, I don't know. He's really good at making up things that rhyme. And it's all things that we did as kids, as musical kids that are happening, but I just can't, for some reason I'm not allowed, which I understand. I guess I wouldn't want my mom doing that either. We have to be sneaky about it.
Leah Roseman:
Both my husband and I are violinists. And of course, we wanted our kids to play and we'd all, I even bought all this four violin music. I thought it would be a thing
Kat Raio Rende:
Here, I'll put this here. And what happened?
Leah Roseman:
Well, our older daughter did play violin for a while and a whole bunch of other instruments, but she said at a certain point, it's pretty hard with you guys being at a certain level and it's not for me. And she loves music, but she went in a totally different direction creatively. She has a creative career, but not music. And our younger daughter, I think we were smart enough to let things go.
Kat Raio Rende:
Did they pick those books up at any point?
Leah Roseman:
No. I mean, you can tell when kids are doing things to please you and when it's coming from them.
Kat Raio Rende:
Right? Definitely. I'm going to,
Leah Roseman:
But
Kat Raio Rende:
How could, isn't it difficult as a young kid? I mean, I guess it's vocally the same thing where you have to pitch it yourself, but did you put any dots on the violin? Did you do anything to show them where the pitches were? Did you put one out and they picked it up or not picked it up, or they were just not interesting?
Leah Roseman:
Oh, I taught them both violin to a certain level. I mean, I don't want to get into the pedagogy. I think we need to use our ears and sense of touch. And the trouble is when, yeah, it's like a whole thing, but whether we use tape or not, but
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah,
Leah Roseman:
I won't get into teaching music. But yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of classical musicians like myself, they will listen to a lot of classical music in their home. But my husband and I are not of that ilk because it's just so much. We work in an orchestra, so the kids didn't grow up listening to symphonies. People make that assumption, but no, that's not what was playing on our stereo.
Kat Raio Rende:
Did you take them to performances? Were they interested in it?
Leah Roseman:
They did to a certain extent, but yeah, it's a tough one. Yeah,
Kat Raio Rende:
Very tough. It's so tough to have, obviously. And I know having grown up around music, my dad played in wedding bands, but he loved, not but, and he loved music. So it was always there, and it was just seeping by osmosis. I loved it. And you listen to Linda Ronstadt, and there's so many, all Stevie Wonder, every Stevie Wonder song there ever was, and the Doobie Brothers and those kinds of things, or remember, I mean, sorry, when I was younger, listening to Carole King, I'm like, that stinks. Why does he listen to that? I'm like, ah, her voice, what? But then you listen to it as an adult and you're like, oh, oh wow, that's really good. And I don't know, you're just around it all the time, so you do absorb it. So to teach them, they'll learn and learn. Anyway, I guess. I hope, I don't know. I don't know. She's in a choir. Benny, I put it in an acting class, 'cause always, every day he dresses up as something else, so I'm like, maybe he'll like acting. But at the time, he didn't take to it. So I dunno. I'm really interested to see if they're interested or if they're totally turned off because they're hearing it all the time. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
So did you have any kind of classical training growing up?
Kat Raio Rende:
Yeah, I voice lessons. I mean, I did pick up the violin and I really tried to teach myself violin just because I'm like, oh, this is fun. I dunno, we didn't have a lot of money growing up, so I wasn't able to be in anything I wanted. So my mom was always be the class mom and be able to get the things for free. I think that's how it worked out. So I couldn't get violin lessons. I never asked for them either. But when I was a little bit older, I rented a violin for two weeks or three weeks to see if I could get it. And it was such a world that there are sometimes where you have to say, okay enough, you can't do deep dives on every hobby that you have. I mean, you can, but you're going to burn out. So anyway, but I was part of a choir and over the summer the choir had a camp, and each summer we would get private voice lessons.
And I got lessons from this amazing soprano. Her name is Nell Snaidas, and she had the most amazing up here. I got a few different types of voice lessons that were really interesting, the first voice lessons that I got when I was little, but she taught me how to sing from your diaphragm, but she didn't call it that. We were in fifth grade. She just said, sing from your belly and get the sound out and pull into the emotion and know it and sing that way. But then a couple of years after that, in this classical, in this choir, this liturgical choir, we're not very religious. I just happens to come up a couple of times today, sorry. But we were taught to sing up here. So my choir teacher, my choir teacher would, choir teacher would say, have us go, my name is Julia Child, and to sing from your cheeks from up here. And it felt like such two total different worlds.
But she had me sing up there and we would do lascia ch'io pianga and all these amazing arias. And there was a while where we got into John, my high school, we got into John Rutter for classical stuff. And to hear as a kid, at least as a kid, I would be like, that's so stuffy, or that's so this or that. And then when you really listen to it, you say, oh my God. You could see in the evolution of classical music, how it was influenced by jazz and how the harmonies were changing. And now it's some of my favorite stuff because it's so just to have so many people playing the same piece of music at once, it's amazing. There's so much room for harmony and there's so much use of it. And the tams being able to have the ability for the different tams to each show in one piece of music is so cool.
Leah Roseman:
So in your role as a coach, often you're working with celebrities. What kind of advice are you, or what kind of skills are you working on with them?
Kat Raio Rende:
There's two different types of vocal coaches. There's a vocal coach and there's a voice director. I have been a vocal coach. There was a couple of times where I vocal coached Jo Stone in studio, but it wasn't exactly voice lessons. It was more like vocal production. So now as a vocal producer, which is very different, I'm just working with people who know what they're doing already. So it's more like making sure, for example, making sure that the character still sounds like the character, and helping them find a way to make the character in that note, or helping them make sure that, especially in animated music, in animated series, rather when the character is doing a sound that their live face is not showing on that sentiment still has to be accurately reflected in their tone or in their performance or the way they sing it.
So sometimes they'll be smiling on the zoom because New York and LA do it over Zoom. A lot of times they'll be smiling, but it won't come out. And so you'll have to say, oh, put a little bit more smile. Put an exaggerated smile on that. But a lot of times these people are so good that they are just able to do it. So half my job is just writing down best takes and then putting them together. And fortunately for our music, it's nice to be able to be the person that does the takes, the select takes, which is the best one. So if you do it five times, you'll be like, okay, line one, take two, line two, take four. It's nice to be able to do that because you know that you're going to get what you imagined you would get. And they know what's best for their character too.
But I got to vocal coach Cardi B when she was doing the seaweed sway. And again, same thing. There's no one that could be a better Cardi B than Cardi B. There's nothing I could teach her that she wouldn't know. She's the best version of herself, not, I did her vocal demo, but I'm not, there's nobody that's better than Cardi, than Cardi. So my job was just to, she'll be like, can I do that again? Or whatever. But also to say, this word didn't come out for the kids, it sounded like it did. So making sure that the words are articulate enough sometimes is your job as a vocal coach for kids' music especially. Yeah,
Leah Roseman:
That makes sense. So with animated series and even puppetry, if there's an illness or someone has a problem with their voice, do they sometimes bring in a sub and then the audience may not know if they're really good at imitating or
Kat Raio Rende:
Never? Never. Not once have I heard that A lot of times they will. That is interesting because they could, right? If somebody was really, really good, I don't remember who it was, but I know this happened with somebody very famous, but I can't remember who it was. Someone went to go replace a demo singer's voice. Oh, I know who it was, and I don't think I can tell this, but it's somebody super, super famous. It's an animated character in an animated series that's very, very, very, very well known. And she went to go replace, I think she had a cold, she went to go replace that take, and she'd be like, what's wrong with it? We don't have to replace it. A lot of times you'll go back in for ADR, which is I think, automated dialogue. I think that's what it's called, auto dialogue recording. I don't remember, replacement. So when they have to do it again, they'll go in and replace what they did to make it better. She's like, what's the matter with that one? That one's so good. The person's like, well, that wasn't you.
Which is funny because as an animated character, everybody has a version of Al Pacino that they think they can do really well, or Matthew McConaughey that they think they can do really well. So plenty of people do it like that. That being said, and this is off topic, so forgive me, but there are characters when you're doing their demos that absolutely do not want you to sound like them. And then there are other characters that really do want you to sound like them. So for example, my first character I ever wrote for was Elmo, and someone had taken me to the side, he's like, just so you know, Kevin Clash was playing Elmo at the time. He does not want you to sound like Elmo. Because imagine hearing people's, I don't know if he thought they were bad, but people's impressions of you over and over and over again, it must sound so for lack of a better term, disrespectful, but it's not. It's meant with love. And then there are other characters that are like, you have to sound like them so that they know what to do.
Leah Roseman:
So are there well-known characters you can do at the drop of a hat now?
Kat Raio Rende:
I think I can in my head, but lemme see. Who do I have? I have, oh, hold on. I can show you the difference between New Elmo and Old Elmo. Again, I don't sound like them, just so you know, but
I'll Elmo, old Elmo used to have this thing where he had a New York accent, but I don't really, again, I'm not very good at it. I just know it in my head.
And then New Elmo has a little bit of, he's a little more street smart. I think the way that Ryan plays him a little bit more street smart. So New Elmo is a little bit, he sounds exactly the same in tone, so he really has it, and you really have to just be listening to it every day to know that it's not exactly the same. But he really, I don't think anybody knew when Old Elmo and knew Elmo switched, but New Elmo is a little bit more like this, and he has a little bit, he has almost like an edge. It's so funny to listen to him because I love new, he plays things a little bit wiser, so fun to listen to. No, I don't have any good impressions, but in my head, when I write for the characters, I know what they're going to sound like, which is the reason I don't try to sound like them a lot of the times.
Leah Roseman:
Well, we started with friends with Penguin and we don't walk alone. So one of your roles as a creator is kind of expressing emotions for kids that maybe they didn't know they had. Maybe you could speak to that.
Kat Raio Rende:
That's something really important to me. And as an underscore composer as well, especially within kids music, JP did a lot of the underscoring for series, so I don't do as much of it, but We Don't Walk Alone and Friends With a Penguin. There's so many that, especially in Sesame Street specifically, Sesame Street is so brilliant at it because their lyrics are never what you think. If we wrote the song a different way, you would never know what the song is about. And I think having a melody, it's a little bit complex, so forgive me if it's not really making sense, but I'll just tell you.
When you write a melody for a very complex song, like a song, we wrote a song about divorce when Abby's mom and dad, she was talking about them being divorced and having big feelings about it. The song was called Big Feelings, and We Don't Walk Alone. And Friends With The Penguin was the, I'll talk about that separately, but just talking musically how this works, your melody has to be a child's melody. So they have to be able to sing it if they're thinking about it. It's like when a child dreams or plays how they're, they're playing simply, but they're playing because they're having such big feelings. When my kid, my soon to be kindergartner plays school, he's worried about it. So you'll see that the character, it's like play therapy, right? The characters do the things that you're worried about. So the melody has to be a kid's melody, but the things behind it project the feelings that you really want, the feelings, the real things.
And so when you have a complex song, it's important to empathize with the child what they're actually feeling. Those feelings they don't have words for, and they don't even maybe know they're having Sometimes in play, a kid will be jealous, but they don't know what it is. So they'll think it's like that the person is taking something from them or something. We don't walk alone started with it was supposed to be gun violence, and so lyrically the child could only talk about how he's feeling alone, but he's not talking about grief per se, and not out loud, but in the music feels, just like I told you about how we made the beginning of this song, you don't have a center. You don't know where I'm not grounded anymore. I was, but I'm not. And feeling alone, and they can't talk about it, but they can say, I relate to this sound, this sonic landscape.
I connect to that and I don't know why, but they don't have to know why. They have to let the music, which could be in another language. Sometimes it could be made up syllables, but if they know that that's what they're feeling, it's almost like you can musically take them into a place where you feel grounded and you can tell them why with a simple melody. And so that was that one. And Friends with the Penguin was another interesting one because it's obviously about seeing a, I mean, I think it's about seeing a trans kid or a person who's displaying a gender that is not what you would expect to see a child like that. And for that, it wasn't supposed to be, you don't really, we're not trying to connect with the confused feelings because we're trying to tell the kid, Hey, all you got to do is say hi, that's it.
Just say hi. That's how to do it. So it's more like that was more like, this is how to do it instead of I empathize with you. And grief is, there's no answer for that. You have to sit with it. But for friends with a penguin, it was like, I'm going to celebrate just the introduction. That's all it is. After that, this kid is not a stranger anymore. This kid is a person. And most of the time that's the answer to kids noticing that people are not like them at around age four. I think they say that kids start to realize that other kids are not like them. That's the answer to four year old noticing. You just say, you have to know that they're people, which it sounds silly, but you have to just know somebody and that's it. You just say Hi, and then you start playing together. That's all. That's kind of all it takes at four.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, really beautifully said. Well, thanks so much, Kat, for sharing your perspectives today. Really appreciate it.
Kat Raio Rende:
Of course. Leah, thank you so much for having me on the show and chatting about all this stuff. I don't know, I guess people don't know all of those things about how the industry works and things like that, so it's nice to talk about it.
Leah Roseman:
I hope you enjoyed this episode. There's such a fascinating variety to life and music, and this series features wonderful musicians worldwide with in-depth conversations and great music. With over a hundred episodes to explore, many episodes feature guests playing music spontaneously as part of the episode, or sharing performances and albums. I hope that the inspiration and connection found in a meaningful creative life, the challenges faced and the stories from such a diversity of artists will draw you into this weekly series with many topics that will resonate with all listeners. Please share your favorite episodes with your friends and do consider supporting this independent podcast. The link is in the description. Have a great week.
