Leslie DeShazor: Transcript

Leslie DeShazor:

At a high level, any musician worth their salt is working hard, whether it's a pop artist, a hip hop artist, a classical orchestral musician. When you hit the highest level or you get close to the highest level, your work is hard. Hip hop, for example. People really talk badly about hip hop, but try saying all those words that fast in an articulate way, also in an entertaining way, and get people to grasp onto every word you say. It's not easy.

Leah Roseman:

Leslie DeShazor is a multi-style, violist, violinist, educator, and composer based in Detroit. She teaches students both through the Sphinx Organization and the Detroit Symphony, as well as privately. She was named one of 30 professional movers and shakers in the performing arts by Musical America in 2019. In 2022, she released her jazz and R&B album Journey with Me, which features herself as soloist, band leader, and composer.

Towards the beginning of this episode, you'll hear her composition "Simply Complicated" from Journey With Me. This conversation was full of stories and insights from Leslie's life. She shared valuable perspectives that young people, educators, parents, and anyone who mentors children will find inspiring and thought-provoking. We talked a lot about why kids quit playing music, why so many young adults today have trouble figuring out the direction of their life, and how the educational system can take away people's innate creativity and confidence.

Leslie is such an articulate and engaging speaker. I'm sure listeners everywhere will enjoy this episode, which like all the episodes in the series is available as both a podcast and a video with the transcript published to my blog, all linked In the description.

Hi, Leslie. Thanks for joining me today.

Leslie DeShazor:

Thank you for having me.

Leah Roseman:

I should have checked how you pronounce your name. It's DeShazor, right?

Leslie DeShazor:

That's right, yeah.

Leah Roseman:

Okay. Congratulations on your recent album, Journey With Me.

Leslie DeShazor:

Thank you.

Leah Roseman:

What did it feel like fronting your own band? Because for many years you've played backup to some great players. What was that like?

Leslie DeShazor:

I'm still getting used to it. It's great. I like having some autonomy. I like being able to decide what music is going to be. I like even just the process of getting to know everyone who's a part of the band and how they contribute to the band. It feels good. It's also a lot more work, because when you are used to just showing up to a gig or to a show or whatever, and you just have your instrument and you learn your music, and then you just go.

But with having your own band, you have to really think about everybody else all the time. Make sure everyone's good. Even small, small details, like how you print the music out, how you write the music, how you notate things, all those little details. You'll have certain members of your band who will be quick to let you know, that doesn't work or this is great.

But it feels good. It's empowering. It's also nice to be in the front as a string player. More of us are doing it, and more of us are being acknowledged, but I think in the non-classical worlds, we still don't see a lot of string players as band leaders. So I like that part a lot about it. And then, also, too, being female and being in jazz and also frequently playing viola kind of puts me on this island a bit, but I've enjoyed it.

It's been a really good learning process and you're also forced to be a lot more organized when you have to quote-unquote lead other people. But I have some really solid band members, and honestly, most of them have lot experience and so they help me a lot, too, in areas that I may fall short in.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. Are you the kind of person that it's easy for you to ask for help when you need it?

Leslie DeShazor:

No, not at all. I've gotten better though, a lot better. In fact, I've been blessed to have people around me lately, too, who will pick up the slack when I haven't asked, like helping me notate a chart that maybe I didn't write the best way for a bass player or something like that. I've got people who will do that for me, but I am not good at asking for help.

But it's one of the things that I am learning to get better at, because I need it. In fact, I just recently put out a call to people like, "Hey, anybody want to do some admin work for me for just a little money?" Because I realize just being able to focus on the creative aspect of things and also organizational and administrative stuff, it's really difficult for my personality type. Maybe others do better with it than I do. But I don't ask for help easily, but I'm definitely working on getting better at it, and also saying no to things, because I've not always been good about that in the past.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. And on that album you use your five string mostly?

Leslie DeShazor:

It's almost half and half. I used my viola for one, two, three ... Three of the tunes, and the other ones I used the five string.

Leah Roseman:

Okay.

Leslie DeShazor:

So there's four other tunes. Yeah.

Leah Roseman:

So, in the picture, you're with your five string. It's kind of a minimalist instrument with mostly just the ...

Leslie DeShazor:

Yes. On the back cover of the CD, though, I'm holding my viola to the front. Yeah, it's a really small, solid body instrument. People are always like, "What is that?" Because it doesn't even look like a violin or viola, from just glancing at it. It looks like some kind of ... I don't even know what they think it is, but yeah.

Leah Roseman:

Do you miss the feeling of the ribs of the instrument when you're shifting or is that not-

Leslie DeShazor:

Mm-hmm.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah?

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah, I do, because I play that instrument and I also play on a carbon fiber viola sometimes when I'm playing amplified, and those instruments feel very different. The thing I miss the most though with the electric is the feedback that you feel from an acoustic instrument. The solid body, especially when you're in a very loud situation, you can feel really lost, because you just don't even have the vibrations against your body to help you feel where you are on the instrument.

And then, of course just navigating two five strings, different angles with a bridge being a little less curved. So it's different. I don't practice on it that much. I practice it before I'm playing shows on it, because it can get away from you and feel like a whole new instrument if you're not regularly working with that instrument, but when I practice at home, I usually practice on my wood acoustic instruments. I still prefer the way they feel.

So this tune that you are going to hear by me is the tune that I entitled "Simply Complicated". Originally, it was called "It's Simple", but then when I brought it to the band. My guitarist was like, "This piece is not simple at all." And it just made me think about the fact that there's so much simplicity in life and so much complexity, and some things that seem simple are actually complicated. If you have an issue with overspending, the simple solution is to spend less, but the complication is in addressing whatever mentality is causing you to overspend. So that is why the song is cause "Simply Complicated".

Leah Roseman:

You got to start on viola in school, not violin, and I had heard some stories you told that were really great about pranking, because you were so bored, because the viola part was so ...

Leslie DeShazor:

Yes. I was pretty obnoxious, when I think back. I was definitely bored, and so I would do little pranks on my teacher sometimes, but I also would do this obnoxious thing where I would learn all the other people's parts on my viola. So I knew the first violin part by memory a lot of the time.

Second violin part by memory on viola. I did play cello for two years. That kind of helped to decrease the boredom, but I also would do things like learn the viola part a half step higher or play the whole thing at half step lower, which in retrospect was really quick, but the music was easy and I would play, if the piece was in A, I would play the whole thing in B flat major, and my teacher would be like, "Damn it, Leslie."

I drove him crazy. But the funny thing is, I ended up being ... Later on, I ended up working with him, gigging with him, and it was fine. We ended up getting along just fine, but I had matured a lot by then and just grown up some. He was really good to me even though I was not the best student sometimes.

Leah Roseman:

So you grew up in Detroit, where you're based?

Leslie DeShazor:

I grew up in the suburbs, so in the metro Detroit area, but I grew up ... Detroit has all these smaller cities that surrounded Detroit, and historically a lot of them were built specifically for factory workers. So my first city I lived in when I was younger is called Inkster, and that was made for, I've heard, Black factory workers to live in that community.

And then we moved to Canton when I was a little bit older, which is another small suburb of Detroit, but both of those cities had the thing in common where all of my friends, our parents worked at one of the big three. And every once in a while you'd come across someone whose parent didn't and they drove a Honda, and I was like, death to the foreign car, back then.

I always did things in Detroit. I was part of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra Civic Youth Orchestra. And then of course just doing concerts, and a lot of my friends were from Cass Tech, which is a big school here in Detroit. A lot of musicians have come out of Cass Tech.

Leah Roseman:

It's such an important city for music history in so many genres.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yes, in fact, I recently was listening to Nicholas Peyton covered one of Geri Allen's tunes, and she was talking about Detroit and just how there was a point where people did weave very effortlessly in and out of all these genres, because Detroit is famous for techno. A lot of people don't know that. Motown, obviously, Detroit has some of the most prominent jazz musicians have come from Detroit, and obviously there's a huge classical tradition in Detroit as well. And a lot of those musicians, in the earlier times of recording, were recording with Motown of all the genres. Detroit is definitely a very important to American music, like Nashville or New York City. Definitely I would rank Detroit up there, because a lot of the musicians who come out of here don't stay here, but that doesn't change that their roots are Detroit. I don't know if I really understood that when I was younger.

I don't think I appreciated what Detroit offered the world, because anyone who knows a little bit about Detroit history, you know that Detroit has seen some very depressed economic times, a lot of segregation, a lot of bad race relations between Detroit and the suburbs. And so a lot of what Detroit has had to offer has been overshadowed by a lot of the negativity.

So, as I got older and started to ... Because I forgot the big one, Gospel music. Gospel music is huge in Detroit. As I got older, I was in the church. I lived my young life, we were always at church. So I got a lot of my first performance experiences in church, and a lot of my encouragement from the church, but I think at the time I didn't really appreciate it because it was just what I was used to. And then when I started to really get out more and experience the world more and travel, then I started hearing about the people from Detroit that I didn't know personally, or just the respect that other musicians have the moment you say that you're from Detroit or you play in Detroit or you grew up around Detroit. It's instantly you get recognized for just being a musician coming out of Detroit.

Leah Roseman:

Were you singing in church, too, growing up?

Leslie DeShazor:

Yes. You asked if I sang in the church? Yes. I did a lot of things in church because we were a small church and my parents were pastors, so we did whatever needed to be done at the church. So I taught Sunday school. I played drums for a minute. I sang the choirs, sang in the praise and worship team, and then I played piano for the church at a certain point. But my church, at a certain point, sort of pivoted to this ... I don't know how familiar you are with church music, but it pivoted sort of this praises and worship kind of music, which was more open, less harmonically dense, like gospel music is.

It's kind of more like what you see in some of the evangelical churches where people are playing guitars and there's a lot of vamping, open praise kind of emphasis. So I grew up in my early days of church, it was the traditional kind of blues-inspired gospel hymns, shouting, just kind of ... When people think the stereotypical Black church when you're there all day, camped out all day, every day.

That's how I started off, but then we started to swing into a different sort of movement of music. By the time I was playing piano for the church, I was playing more like what's called praise and worship, but not gospel per se, but I've always still had roots in the church, and to this day, still play in churches. Not as much as I did when I was younger, but I still do it and I still love it.

What you find is that, because a lot of PKs and I would include myself in this because of my background, it's a little bit different, but a lot of my friends grew up in church who played piano for their church and their parents were pastors. They spent so much time in church, they would just be basically having jam sessions in church. So they were just exploring all this harmony and stuff.

What you find is, you take a gospel hymn and you hear a gospel organist play it from a more traditional Black church background, and they're playing substitutes all over those chords. It's almost never just a straight one, four, five. That kind of harmonic depth. But a lot of them don't actually know what they're doing. They just hear it, and what you find is that you get these super musicians who come out of the Black church, especially when you couple that with some kind of formal training.

You have a guy like Damien Sneed, who's got the classical vocal chops, but also grew up in the church, and he combines that, like Richard Smallwood. It's like this, I don't even know. The super musician who can play everything and doesn't need music, but also can read. So I've been always amazed when I go in churches and I'm like, "Okay." I played at a church two weeks ago and I kind of was like, "Well, I guess I'll do this medley of these three songs." And I kind of did a common denominator of "How Great Thou Art", "Great Inside Faithfulness", and "How Great is Our God".

Two of them are older school songs and then the other one's something newer, and I was like, "Eh, I'll do it in B flat." Kind of had the idea. Didn't rehearse it, just showed up and I was like, "This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to do it in B flat, and then I'm going to take it out. Band's going to join me in the last one and we're going to play it up tempo."

They were like, "Okay." Played it. It's beautiful. Just like that. No rehearsal, no need to overly dissect or talk too much about the music. So I appreciate that a lot now. I didn't when I was younger, but I appreciate it a lot now, because these guys are ... People. I shouldn't say guy, but they're amazing what they can do, and frequently underappreciated and overlooked because they're in the background, supporting singers a lot.

Leah Roseman:

I'm curious because, on the other hand, you had this classical education, really pursuing more of an orchestral career, I imagine, or ...

Leslie DeShazor:

Of course, yeah.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. So, when you went to Interlochen, and also with the Detroit Civic Orchestra, there's this, what I find, kind of weird tradition where you compete for your chair, like it fosters this competitive atmosphere. As a teacher now, and as a parent, how do you think about that, looking back?

Leslie DeShazor:

That's a tough one. I still grapple with competition, because as a parent, I've seen my children excel. I've seen my children be very disappointed by competition. When I was younger, I think the competition can fuel you, but can also tear you down. When we look at the concept of a meritocracy, it really is inherently extremely flawed. You can't really make it fair in the meritocracy because there are too many variables that would affect whether or not a student is able to compete on the level.

I think competitions are good for kids who are competitive, in ways, but I don't think overall competition is good for young players especially. I think it kind of clouds the reason, like the why you do it, and makes it just like everything else that we do. I think for some people the pressure is really intense and they don't want to play anymore. They don't want to perform anymore, because we've made it something that's like work and something that sort of strips you of your identity, like one more thing.

So I think I feel very torn, because my background and the way I've been raised and the way we've all been raised, we have this competitive side. We have this side of us that wants to be on the level, and the only way to do that, sometimes, in our minds, is to compare ourselves to what the level is and then reach it or go greater, and that level is usually set by someone else. I really want to see students get a lot more chance to be themselves and develop their own voice, and that to me, I think, is the danger of competition and making people compete for chairs and things, because it takes the emphasis away from the students' development and puts the emphasis on creating an entity that's the best.

And you fit in how you fit in, no matter who you are, your personality, your background. I think now that I've gotten to this age and I've had my own children and I've watched what competitions do to kids and adults, too, but more so kids, I don't know that I think it's generally healthy. And I might change my mind in five or 10 years, I don't know, but right now, I think the pressure that we put on students right now is insane.

It's a little heartbreaking, honestly, because a lot of them are working so hard and they still wouldn't have what it takes to make it in certain settings. And that's why, when you talk about a meritocracy, when you start talking about competition, the cards are always going to be ...

Leslie DeShazor:

Talking about competition, the cards are always going to be stacked against certain people no matter how hard they work. And so for that reason, I don't like competition, but I do think that there are some really beneficial things about being around other people who are working hard, about being around other people who are achieving a high level of something, because it can be inspiring. And the grit that you build from competing and losing can be good for you in ways. But that is assuming that you even have the ability to get to the level of competing. And a lot of people get lost in that space where they can't even get to the level of competing. We did the chairs and I had a really specific and interesting experience when I went to Interlochen and because I started off... Now in this case, this was good for me because when I was in my high school, well this was middle school, when I first went, I was the best.

I was so good and I excelled very quickly. I started playing in sixth grade and by eighth grade I was already going to Interlochen in eight week camp. I was competing. When I think back, I was just doing it then. But when I think back, I was moving really quickly through music and when I got to Interlochen and I was the last stand, last orchestra or the lowest orchestra. There was two orchestras, and I was the last stand, lowest orchestra, and I was just blown away. I didn't know that there were people who were playing so much better than me.

So we challenged weekly, and I did challenge and got to the higher orchestra. And then even once I got there I wanted to challenge and get up. And I remember what the teacher used to do is he would have us do the challenge and then everyone had to close their eyes and then vote for who they thought was the better audition or the better, I don't know, I don't know what would you call it? Excerpt or whatever. And the guy I challenged, I thought he played better than me, so I voted against myself, and it was me who made me lose.

And my teacher was like, "Why would you vote against yourself?" And I said, "Because he played better than me." And I remember each person I've ever told that story to, they always had the same response. You never vote against yourself. But I don't know, I feel like in retrospect, I feel like I did the right thing. I think for me, I really felt like he played better and so I just raised my hand to vote for him.

But that was good for me. That experience was good in the sense that it gave me a scope of what I was going to have to be prepared for if I want to continue to play. But it's kind of an interesting thing because there's also a lot of things that came along with being in those rigorous environments that I would love to just throw away.

But I think the thing is to regularly check in with students and make sure they're able to put that stuff in perspective. And I think that's where we lack the holistic approach to learning is that we tell kids, "Oh it's this. It's just a competition. Don't get upset about it. Just work harder." But there's so much more psychologically that's happening with that kid. So they need more of an authentic talk about, hey, this does not define you. It feels like it does, and that's normal. But remember you still have your own voice. You're still unique. There's still things you have yet to accomplish that won't have anything to do with what somebody else can do. It's 100% what you can do.

I wish I would've understood that better when I was younger. And I think that's probably the one danger about classical training, because it's very assimilation-based and it discourages. Although people have opened their minds more now. I don't think it's like it was when I was coming up. I don't think. But I'm also not in a student situation where I'm having to prove myself all the time either now. Yeah. Did that answer your question? I went on and on.

Leah Roseman:

No, I'm always curious. I mean I'm a classical player and I play in an orchestra full time. I didn't have that kind of experience. I was never in that sort of situation where we were competing for chairs or it was overt competition. I didn't actually participate in competitions growing up. So until I started doing professional auditions, that was sort of my first real... And when I'd heard these stories about Interlochen specifically, I was shocked that people... It seemed so negative to me. So would the teacher pick the excerpt or...

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah, you pick it. There would be a spot, because I went to the eight week couple of times. So you challenge every week, and you get new music every week.

Leah Roseman:

Okay.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah. So you don't have to challenge. The challenge is up to you. And then you get new music every week. Now mind you, this was a long time ago. I don't know how things are now, but I conduct a youth orchestra and we have to give the kids chairs, and I cringe every year when I have to do it, because we tell them these things like, oh it doesn't matter. Every chair is the same. But they're not dumb enough to believe that. You know what I mean? They see that certain kids always end up in the front, and they don't. And there's a lot of people who are starting to challenge this. I was part of an ASTA committee this past year and we talked a lot about this. I frequently don't pick the kid who's the best player to sit the first chair. I try to find a kid who likes to lead, who actually wants to be in that seat.

Because some kids don't even want to be in that seat. They have the chops, but they don't want to be in that seat. But I do think on the whole, when you talk about comparing people to other people, it's going to be negative. I just don't think there's any way around it other than helping to give them psychological tools to help them put it in perspective. But as humans, we spend a lot of energy comparing ourselves to others. And I don't see where it's ever been useful for me to compare myself to other people. It only just makes me feel bad, usually.

Leah Roseman:

When you're conducting the youth orchestra, how do you get them to listen better?

Leslie DeShazor:

I don't know.

Well, I've tried a few things. I'm very animated so that gets them listening, because I come in there, it's Saturday morning, they're all dead to the world. Our workshop is at 8:30. And most of the kids who are my orchestra, they're these high achieving kids. So they're part of AP classes and different clubs and things. So this is just one more thing for them to do in the course of they're already insanely busy week, most of them. So they come in tired. Most of the time they are half asleep.

I'm very animated. I give a lot of metaphors, a lot of examples. I've been known to do all kinds of things on the stand like dance and sing and compare. I make a lot of really interesting analogies to help them visualize what I'm talking about.

But then what I started doing a few years ago, and I don't always do it, but I do try and make recordings for them that are practice speed. And if I'm really feeling super diligent, I'll make recordings that highlight the individual sections. So I'll do the piece, and then I'll make the second violin part louder so they can practice along with it. And that's really helpful for those of them who actually practice. Now, the ones who practice are still outnumbered by the ones who don't.

But I just try and make it fun. I try to make it interesting. I try to get to know them some as much as I can, give them opportunities to talk and make their jokes and stuff during rehearsal. My rehearsals are probably a little unconventional compared to my colleagues. But mostly I get them to listen by talking and also relating it to their lives as much as I can and also mine. I think the fact that I still perform a lot does help because I can say, "Well when I am doing this or that," or, "When I'm preparing for this or that show." Then they're interested like, "Oh you did this?" Or, "You have your own band," or, "You're playing Hamilton."

They're interested because as teachers sometimes we forget that our students are inspired by us a lot. When I take my instrument I play for them specifically, play for them, they love it. My younger classes, especially my beginning violin classes, I forget sometimes I get sick of hearing myself play, but they don't hear it that much. They mostly just see you teaching and you're not demonstrating anything. But yeah, I think I try to be aware a little bit of young people, what they're into. They talk to me about some of the things that they do and I think that establishes a rapport with them that makes them want to listen. Some of them just don't care, but they're the minority. Most of the students who come are really interested and they want to improve and they want to be there.

So this group is a little more unique in that it's a Saturday. It's at Orchestra Hall. I mean it's really cool. They get to come to Orchestra Hall, they get to do their concerts on the stage of Orchestra Hall, and I'm very quick to show to them, "Hey, this is one of the world's most well-known spaces and you get to play on it. So this is huge."

But I am frequently amazed when I'm there, because there used to be, there's one security guard who's still there from when I was in middle school, my very first year in Civic, I was in eighth grade. Then there's one security guard who died about four years ago and he was there. So the thing about these programs that I try and remember when I'm teaching is that they're pivotal in your development beyond just being the musician.

So when I used to go there, that's when Orchestra Hall had not been newly renovated. And there's this whole educational wing now that wasn't there. And we used to have to walk through this park into a trailer and that's where security was. And then through that trailer we'd get to the hall. So a couple of those security guards, one who was still living, one who passed away saw me through every phase of my life. They saw me as a teenager coming to orchestra, just being silly. I'm very silly. They saw me as a college student who would come occasionally, occasionally and play concerts at the hall with visiting guests or whatever. They saw me as professional when I started to actually play some concerts at Orchestra Hall as a paid professional. Then they saw me as an educator there, and then they saw me as a mother. Because my children, both of them participate in the program as well. So my roots in that building are really deep. It's kind of interesting.

So when I stand there on Saturday mornings, I have that relationship with the space and with the culture with Detroit, it's really unique. I used to love seeing Mel. He's the one who passed away. He was a grandfather type. As he got older and a lot of people knew him. But we would sit in when I was younger and he would talk to us and I remember when he got diagnosed with cancer, and I remember coming back from a summer did some touring or whatever and I came back and saw him. He had no hair. I was like, "Oh you shaved your hair off." Just saying something really quick. And then as I said it, I realized he did not shave his hair off. You can tell when someone's in chemo. His weight had dropped. But he worked through all of his treatment. He was at a very advanced stage of cancer. What is the one that men get all the time?

Leah Roseman:

Prostate?

Leslie DeShazor:

Prostate cancer. And he was still doing his bowling club. He had made his funeral arrangements but he was still, and he lived way longer. In fact, he lived long enough to see this movie, this documentary that was made about the 1967 riots. And he was actually a prominent figure in those riots. And so they did a documentary and featured him in that documentary. But it was just like watching him transition onto the next part of whatever you believe. The transition from leaving earth. He was always a solid figure there in that building. So you realize the development part of it is I was learning to play an instrument, but I was also learning to talk to all kinds of people, get to know all kinds of people.

He was a security guard there, but he was as important a fixture to my experience there as a conductor or a teacher. So I try to think like that when I'm teaching, because sometimes we get really focused on getting the kids to play a certain way, but they're experiencing development and growth and you're just a vessel. You're there to either help that experience, or unfortunately you could hurt that experience. And I'm sure there have been times that I've missed the mark, and I've probably said things or maybe embarrass kids. I try really hard not to. But I also have a big mouth. So I'm sure I've probably messed up.

But I think back to how that experience shaped me. I made friends that I have to this day and one of the conductors who was there when I was in high school, I thought he hated me because he seemed like he was hard on me. But then I ended up working with him later. I saw him a few maybe four or five years ago and he was like, "Oh I'm so excited that we're going to be doing this orchestra together." And I was just like, I didn't even think you liked me or knew me or you know what I mean? I was blown away. He was never mean to me, but I just didn't think he liked me for whatever reason. I was a teenager. Who knows what I was thinking in those days. But anyway, taking all this to say with my students in that orchestra, I look at it as a whole experience.

Leah Roseman:

For your own children, did you teach them music?

Leslie DeShazor:

Yes and no. I was never officially their teacher. I have two children. My son is 16 and my daughter is 11. So there's a pretty large age difference between them. With my son, I did a lot more hands on things with him, and in retrospect I should have not, because I was way too attached to it, and he had another teacher. But I was practicing with him. He did Suzuki. My daughter, I've been a lot more hands off with her playing. But they have done things with me. People have approached me about them doing gigs and they'll go and do some gigs and get paid sometimes. And they've done concerts. When I did some of my concerts during the pandemic, they played with me. I've had them play with my students, which they don't always love to do.

But no, I've never been officially their teacher. But I've definitely taught them a lot of things, and I've probably also made them hate playing a lot, because I'm their mother. I'm way more attached to what they do than my students. My students keep playing at F sharp too low. I'm like, "You'll get it. Just keep working at it." If it was my kids was like, "Hey you got two musician parents. Don't do it. Your ears tell you that it's not in tune." So yeah, my poor son, I think unfortunately with that first child, sometimes you go way too hard in the paint. But he was always a very good violinist though. They both are very, very good violinists. They don't play viola. My daughter's just starting to play viola but they both have always played violin.

Leah Roseman:

When you went to University of Michigan, what was that experience like for you?

Leslie DeShazor:

There were a lot of great things. I made a lot of really great friendships. One of my very best friends to this day, we met freshman year, first day, my first day there. She had been there one year already.

Also was interesting, several of my current colleagues went to U of M, even though they're not all from Michigan, a lot of them are still here in Michigan. And we work together or play together a lot. We even live near each other, which is really interesting how worlds kind of align. There were a lot of good things. I enjoyed learning in the university setting. I really loved a lot of my non-music classes. I loved my anthropology class. I had these African art classes I adored. I loved my philosophy class, and I loved the culture of being on campus.

The music school was competitive and I did learn. Would I say I learned a lot? For the years that I was there, I think I could have learned a lot more. But I'm not blaming the university. I think it's just universities are institutions and we walk into them thinking that they tell us what we should learn, but really now that I understand education better, I think I could have used my resources better to get more of what I wanted from the experience. I think what I wish could have been better was I would love to have had a better general education about a more applicatory application. I feel like a lot of the ways that things are taught in universities are too theoretical and still too abstract. Because when I think about the years I spent learning theory, when I came out, I barely knew anything. It's only when I started improvising that I started to really understand theory.

But then also when I think back, it's like I remember I had this one theory teacher, and he used to teach and he would just look out the window and he seemed very detached, and I failed that class. And the next semester I left U of M and went to Wayne State, because I was just so disillusioned with the whole thing. And I went to Wayne State, and I took oral theory and written theory there with a really great professor. And when I came back to U of M, I placed out of three semesters of theory. But when I went to that teacher, Mr. Dapogny, he's passed away since. I remember him saying, "Why didn't you come to me?" I didn't even really understand what office hours were. I know all the teachers had a syllabus and they put their office hours on there, but I didn't actually know that meant you can go in there and ask for help.

That's another thing you do when you learn how to teach. You start being better about telling people stuff that you think is obvious, because it's not obvious. I really didn't know what office hours were. I just know they kept talking about them, and I never asked. So Mr. Dapogny asked me why I didn't come to him and I was just like, "I didn't think you wanted to help me." And he felt bad about that because when he came to me, this was probably two years after I had his class.

Well anyway, fast forward I play in this rag time group. Come to find out, his specialty was in rag time.. That was his thing. And we worked together and he remembered me from my one semester. I had him in freshman year. And he was great, a great musician, but underutilized in that role teaching freshman theory.

And so that's what I mean when I say some things could be different about institutions and how you are served as the student, because I was interested in improvising. I was interested in traditional music of African American culture. I could have tapped into him for information about that and had a great relationship with him. But instead they put him teaching music theory to freshmen who really probably couldn't care less and he could barely care. He was just probably bored out of his mind teaching that. And there you go, a resource, a person who ended up being this really huge music figure, but we didn't know that because he was teaching us how to go from five to one and understand basic voicings. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but I realized that there were several professors that I had like that. I had my ethnic musicology teacher. Her dissertation wasn't rock and roll, but she was teaching ethnic musicology, very unenthusiastic.

So when I think back to how that education was of shaped and formed, it really wasn't... For it to be a university of that caliber, it seems like maybe there wasn't enough thought put into what should a freshman get out of this when they're coming to this university? Who are the professors that we can place in these roles that are going to make these students enthusiastic about learning? But I think because you're an adult at that point, maybe people aren't thinking like that when they plan these courses.

But then on the flip side, I had some really great professors. I learned a ton from them. So I don't blame anybody for me not having a better education, I just think the system, institutions, maybe at that time they weren't doing a good job of preparing young musicians to be actual working musicians. Everyone's not going to get an orchestra job. Most people aren't going to get an orchestra job. So what are you going to do to help these students be better equipped when they leave college to actually work in the profession that they want to be a part of? I had no idea that a person could have a career I currently have.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah.

Leslie DeShazor:

I didn't know that. But that's what most musicians are doing some form of what I'm doing if they're making a living and they don't have an orchestra job. So even that, the business side of things, it absolutely should be imperative for music majors to understand the most basic things about basically having your own business.

So it was great in ways, but in some ways I feel like going to university sort of zapped my spirit some. I spend a lot of time learning music and spending repetitive amounts of hours learning music I didn't really understand and didn't really like that much. And you figure when there's so much repertoire out there, that doesn't make any sense. Every violist doesn't have to play Walton and Bartok. There's other music.

But that's why I say it is as much on me as it is the university. But I just didn't really understand that when I was younger, because I could have probably petitioned to do other things and been heard, but I just didn't know I could do it.

So now with my students, the ones who are older, I try and put that bug in their ear. If you do decide you want to go to university, don't just jump into your courses and just spit back all the stuff, same thing you did in high school. Figure out what do you really want to do and how can you use those resources around you to get them. Because universities are filled with extremely knowledgeable, resourceful people. And if all you do is tap into the four classes that you have plus whatever, and you don't really go beyond that, you're just going to come out with this generic education that's going to prepare you for a generic life.

Leah Roseman:

And you had a bit of an injury coming out of your college years?

Leslie DeShazor:

I did. I had tendonitis and just overuse. And then that moved into my other arm, because usually when you injure one side of your body, if you don't treat it, then the other side gets injured. So when I finish my senior year, I couldn't play full out anymore. I had to finish with research instead of doing a recital. So, when I finished I thought I wasn't going to have a career in music anymore. And probably part of me was very sad about that. And part of me was probably just like, whatever, I'm tired of all this heartache. It's just like you attach yourself so much to it when you're a musician, it's like a lifestyle, and your value and your worth sometimes is predicted by your success as a musician, and I think when I came out of college, being injured and having to figure out what was next, I was definitely a little disillusioned with where I was. I didn't feel like I was in a good space, and it was also depressing. I stopped going to concerts and stuff, because I couldn't play, so watching other people play just made me envious and depressed. So I worked a full time admin job at University of Michigan for a couple of years. I was the world's worst employee. Surprised they didn't fire me. I hated that job. It was like that thing of, maybe you don't know what you want to do, but you know what you don't want to do. It's like, I can't do administrative work and sit at a desk all day, day-after-day. That was absolute torture for me. I was there, but I did eventually get myself back to it. I just started playing little by little, just adding and increasing.

Leah Roseman:

And you were doing some dance at that time?

Leslie DeShazor:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I did a lot of dance back in those days. When I was at University of Michigan, I took dance classes, and I was a part of this Congolese dance droop. I was pretty heavily involved in that group. I was sort of like a principal dancer. I would do classes for my teacher when he was out of town or do some choreography with him. I love dancing. I still love to dance. Occasionally, I'll go out and just dance by myself for two hours straight, sweat, and go home. But I also used to do a lot of Latin dance, salsa, merengue, bachata.

Then, I danced in the Mexican folklore group when I was in my last couple years of college, which was really fun and really weird. I won't say weird, but there are Black Mexicans. I'm not one of them, but people were kind of like, "Who is this tall Black girl in this group?" But I loved it. I really had a good time, and what's really funny is one thing I tell my students is like, you never know what experiences in life will come back around, because I did that. I took a lot of Spanish when I was in school. I danced with this Mexican folk group, and then I had a lot of friends who were Spanish speakers, so I would speak a lot of Spanish back then.

Fast forward to many years later, I started teaching for Sphinx, and the school I was placed in is in Southwest Detroit, which is one of Michigan's largest Mexican populations, so I ended up needing that Spanish when I worked there. Also, having done the folk group, I learned about the different regions and states in Mexico, so students would come to me, and they would tell me what that their family was from Guerrero or Jalisco, and they would be surprised that I actually knew what they were talking about. So that helped me to form better relationships in that school, because some of the parents were very new to Detroit. The community is pretty homogenous, but then it's always nice when someone who's not a part of the community does know a little something about where you come from.

Not that I would say I know a lot, but it was a good sort of pivoting place for me to get to know these families better. I wasn't just somebody who was classifying everybody Mexican as the same. That doesn't always go over well when people do that to other people, so I tried to be careful not to be like, "Oh, yeah. I know where Jalisco is." You also don't want to be that person either, but all those things I did, like learning the salsa, the merengue, the cumbia, learning those Mexican folk dances, learning the region, learning some about the food. It was funny that, later on in life, I ended up needing to call upon those skills. So that's why with students, I'm always like, "You never know. Try new things, because you just don't know when information that you acquire will help you later in life."

Leah Roseman:

I wanted to ask you about the Sphinx organization. Such an important, it's been around for what? 25 years or something?

Leslie DeShazor:

Mm-hmm.

Leah Roseman:

And you've been involved with them on different levels and got support?

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah, yeah. I've been teaching for the Overture program for, I think, 12 or 13 years now. I've also played in the symphony. I've done some of the work, like when people are asking for an ensemble or something, they may ask me to do certain things. Then, I got a grant from Sphinx for my project. Most of my project was paid for from that grant. What's interesting is when I said, the coming about knowing people from U of M and so working with them, Aaron, Afa, and Andre, who's also a big part of Sphinx, they were all at U of M when I was there. We were all in school together. So it's just interesting, because Aaron's not originally from Michigan. I think Afa is. Andre's not. He's from Tennessee, but they all stayed around.

They're still here. Several of the people that I've worked with through Sphinx, we also have connections to University of Michigan, so that's been cool. Sphinx has done a lot of work throughout the country, and there's always additions to it, because now there's like Sphinx LEAD. There's the work they've done with the American League of Orchestras. Then, there's the Empower one that I did, but then there's also, what's the other one? It's basically funds, endeavors, like business endeavors and ideas. I forget what it's called, but it'll come to me later. People have been forced to notice, I think, some things, and obviously people are on differing sides of what's necessary when it comes to inclusion and diversity.

But when Aaron first had the idea, I remember how hard he worked to get people to finance and fund some of the initiatives that he was doing, the competition, namely, in the beginning. It is no small thing. It's a huge, huge undertaking. When you look at the amount of work Sphinx has been able to do, it's consistently gotten broadened its reach. So it's been nice to see that and be a part of it, just to see even some of the students who I taught in the beginning, because there's Overture, which is the beginning program when you have the babies, and they start the violin from the beginning. Then, there was the Sphinx Preparatory Academy, the one that was before the summer camp that was happening in Detroit. We had those students on weekends.

I know several adult students who I taught in that program, and they really benefited from it. They talk about it to this day. They really loved it, and they loved seeing musicians of color in the classical world be their mentors and be their teachers, because I will say, when I was younger, there were not a lot of people who looked like me leading. My teachers were not like me, didn't look like me. I shouldn't say not like me, because they were still great people, but there is something I think really great for young people who are minorities of any sort: female, LGBTQ, Black, brown, whatever. Any sort of marginalized community, you frequently get used to having to hide in this space that doesn't always welcome or invite you. So when you see somebody who looks like you, leading, I shouldn't say always, but for me at least, it's been good.

And so what I've seen with some of those students who are now adults, and they're able to say in words how that program helped them, they say things like, "It was so good to see you and Mr. John, and this and that. I really admired what you all were doing." So the work that we're doing, sometimes you're just kind of going along business as usual, doing what you do, but it's really fun to see students 10 years later, and hear what they remember, how their experience with your organization, or with whatever thing that you did, how it impacted them. Usually, it's in a positive way, so Sphinx on a broad level, it's a great organization. On a micro level, the fact that you've got all these female, Black, brown, Latinx people representing these roles of leadership that students can look up to, I think, is really important work.

Leah Roseman:

When it started, was it mostly for the Black community or also the Latinx community at the beginning?

Leslie DeShazor:

That's a good question. No. It was Latin, because I remember there was a year where a contestant won, and that was early on, and there were some questions about if they were Latin enough, or sometimes that comes into the conversation. That was pretty early on, so I think from the beginning it was really to reach minority musicians. But for Black and what people say brown, that's very broad, but more specifically people who are, say, from the African diaspora or from Latin America, South America, Mexico, Central America. I think they've always been a part of the regional vision for Sphinx.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah, and is it expanding at all to other disciplines, like drama or dance, or is it just really music?

Leslie DeShazor:

I think it's just music right now.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah.

Leslie DeShazor:

But I do know that the LEAD, Sphinx LEAD, some of the other programs do provide resources for non-classical instrumentalists. At Arts Administration for example, there's a lot of gap bridging that they're trying to have happen there, and that would include any discipline. But I think the music making part of it generally is mostly instrumental classical music. Then, Sphinx Virtuosi and the Symphony, though, has done collaborations with non-classical or non-instrumental music, because Aaron does a lot of poetry, so there's spoken word. There have been other things that have been included in the performance platform, but not necessarily in the programming part of it.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. I was just curious about that. I wanted to ask you about your group, Musique Noire. Is that still going? Is that band still happening or?

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah. We have a project coming out soon, where we collaborated with young artists. It's a generational sort of meeting of the minds. We have a show coming up, so the group does still meet. We do still play together, not as much as we did before, and that probably has a lot to do too with the fact that I'm kind of doing my own thing too. Then, our percussionist, JoVia, she moved away a while ago, so the group, we've been apart, and then we have to come together for specific reasons, but we don't have the ability to rehearse on a weekly basis in the same space or whatever, but the group is still working.

Leah Roseman:

I love your albums. I just ask, because the last one was released, I think, 2017, so I wasn't sure if the band was still together.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah. The next one's going to be out really soon. Actually, it's already recorded and mixed. Just waiting to release it, so it's a cool sort of situation. It's really unusual instrumentation with the percussion and strings. Then, those ladies are, so one of the percussionists, JoVia, she and I have a project that we are part of together. It's originally her baby. We worked on it. We started out, working on it together. It's called Eunoia Society.

That band, we just released the CD back in July, and she and I kind of do more of experimental music, in that it's really more meditative, sort of atmospheric kind of music. I use a lot of effects, a lot of process effects, really just trying to create, it's a soundscape situation more so. So I'll be traveling to Virginia to do some stuff with her week after next with her. She just started working at University of Virginia. So JoVia was originally part of Musique Noire, and then we did some stuff out of that. That's a really cool project too, if you ever have a chance to check it out.

Leah Roseman:

Yeah. I was looking, and I was looking at her and what she's doing. Very, very cool. It's such a wonderful adventure for me to find all these musicians all over the place and then all their connections. It just opens doors.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah.

Leah Roseman:

Music is so broad, even within one supposed genre, and of course labels are such a problem too, right?

Leslie DeShazor:

Yes. They are. I've definitely struggled with that, because I don't even like when people call me classically trained. It's on my bio, and people say it all the time, but really what does that mean? It means you spend a lot of time doing études and arpeggios, and you know what I mean? But classically trained, that's a really broad and vague way to describe someone's training. It's like the first songs you learn are not classical songs, classical pieces. You're learning folk songs for the most part when you first start off, and you do that for a while before you even have the ability to play a piece that's 24 bars, 48 bars, or over 100 bars.

The way that we approach the learning process, we sort of typecast people right away, but when I look back on my upbringing, I got a lot of my training in the church, a lot of my training listening to the radio. A lot of things that are not officially legitimized by certain standards, but classically trained puts you in this space where people are like, "Ooh." You know what I mean? It's like, what it does, I think, is it sets these dividers up between genres, and people start to act accordingly. People will assume certain things about me, because I'm classically trained. Then, sometimes classically trained musicians assume certain things about other musicians.

There's a lot of perception like, "Oh. Jazz musicians are just jamming. They're just having fun." At a high level, any musician worth their salt is working hard, whether it's a pop artist, hip hop artist, classical art, orchestral musician. When you hit the highest level or you get close to the highest level, your work is hard. It's like hip hop, for example. People really talk badly about hip hop, but try saying all those words that fast in an articulate way. Also, in an entertaining way, and get people to grasp onto every word you say. It's not easy, and if you look at someone like Twista or Eminem, for example, they rap so fast. They were probably working their whole lives to be able to say words that fast.

Because they're doing it so seamlessly, we look at it and go, "That's easy, because they're not learning Shostakovich," or whatever. But you look at Stevie Wonder, I mean one of the most prolific songwriters of our time. If you ever try and learn a Stevie Wonder song, you will see that those songs are not easy. They sound easy, because he makes them sound easy, but they're not. I think what I didn't realize coming up is, I used to turn my nose down on certain genres, certain kinds of people, or certain kinds of music. Then, you start to have to experience it, and you're like, "Oh. This is not what I thought it was," but that's because we use these parameters and these words that create this hierarchy that is really, what is the word? It's just sort of like someone just pulled it out of thin air.

I would say a lot of it has to do with European colonization and Western classical standards, right? Because if you say classical music, there's classical music from Mali. There's classical music from India, and they're all intricate and very nuanced in their own right. No one, no matter how great of a musician you are, is going to be able to just jump into some Indian classical music and just play it, because you were classically trained, and you would be like a baby in that music. You wouldn't know anything, so it kind of creates a disrespect, I think, sometimes when we put all these titles and parameters and we sort of create these hierarchies, which is why I'm not super crazy about people calling me classically trained.

But on the other hand, sometimes that helps me fly in under the radar, because when I played at that church last week, and I walked in and I was like, "Oh, yeah. I'll do this, and I'll do that, and then we'll do it in B flat," I could see they said okay, but they looked like, "Hmm. Let's see what she can do." So when I actually played, they were shocked, because as a string player, if you walk into a scene like that, people expect you to sound a certain way. When you don't sound that way, they're really surprised, and then you just can't go anywhere but up from there. In that way, it can be good, because it makes me look better than I am, but I don't know. There's a lot that we sort put ourselves in a box, and ultimately that's to our demise because we're missing out on so much opportunity to grow.

Leah Roseman:

In one of your, I think it might have been in your TEDx Talk, you talked about a couple things I wanted to ask you about. One of them was, like with kids who, you know they're not going to practice their scale, so you might give them a pattern and get them to play it in all the keys.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah. One of the most challenging things about teaching, and one of the reasons that I have not made a lot of my living on private lessons is because, even with a really, really inspiring tribe, people have to want to learn to be inspired to do it. I've tried to really get to know my students and say like, "Okay. What are you doing with your instrument on a daily basis? Are you playing it daily?" I try to even change my language. I don't say, "Are you practicing?" I might say, "Are you playing your instrument daily? Are you discovering music? Are you listening?" So once I kind of get a feel for who they are and what they like, then I try and tailor the education around what they want to learn.

And that changes sometimes. I've given students, like improvising the key of G like, "Don't play a scale. Just here's the track. Here's a loop. Just play over it the key of G. Just explore what the key of G feels like, right?" Because we teach kids scales, and a lot of times, which is bizarre, they don't really know that they're playing the scale. They don't know what they're doing. They're just repeating back what you taught them. What if they're learning the key of G, and they're having to move around the instrument in the key? Then, you might get them to actually understand a little bit more what they're doing, and it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I have one student, he's a young player. He never wants to play classical music.

He doesn't want to. Right now he plays in one of the creative ensemble at DSO, which is part of the jazz program, and he learns things like video game music. He learns tunes. Right now he's learning Au Privave by Charlie Parker, and he's learning a video game. We're working on him. He's work working on the bebop scales and the blue scale. He likes that. That's something that he thrives on. Then, I have another student who doesn't want to do any improvising. She only wants to play straight up from the page. I don't knock that, so that's what she wants to do. She wants to do it, but I do try and be creative and give them some options, so they'll want to play their instruments, maybe practice.

But I think the time that you spend with them, if they feel like you genuinely care about them, they want to keep coming, and they look forward to the lessons, even when they haven't practiced a lot. I try not to shame kids for not practicing, except for the ones who say they want to be music majors. Then, I'm a little different with them, because I'm like, "You're going to find yourself looking crazy when it's time for auditions and you haven't done this work. You're going to be upset with yourself." But for the ones who just want to continue to come, hang with me, and we play music for an hour while they're here, I don't really press them too hard. I encourage them to try and be prepared.

But I know in reality, when I look back on my education, the number of kids who actually stuck with it were very, very low. Most people don't continue once they leave high school, or they'll just be done with music, which makes no sense when you consider how many people want to learn how to play. People go to their grave saying that they wish they would've learned how to play an instrument, so why do so many people not continue once they start to play? And I think it's because we put the pressure on, we make the stakes too high, and we don't look at the reality. Most people don't want to be high level musicians. They want to be able to play some songs that they like. That's the biggest reason most people pick up an instrument. They heard a song they liked, and they were like, "I want to play that on that instrument."

Sometimes it's a song that's hard, like Scottish Fantasy or something like that, but sometimes it's something like I Just Called to Say I Love You or What a Wonderful World. If that's all you want to do, that's fine. More than likely, you'll probably explore and figure out other things you like, but if the first thing the teacher does when the student comes in and says they want to do that, and they go, "Okay. Well, here's Kreutzer. Here's Flesch, and here's Schradieck," they're gone. You lost them. They're not interested in Kreutzer or Schradieck. I mean, I was barely interested. I did it, because it gave me chops. But I remember asking my teacher to give me something more musical, and he gave me Campagnoli Etues, which I liked way better than Kreutzer, but now it's like you don't even have to use an etude book.

You can actually work on songs that have technical things and use that. One student of mine's learning an anime song, so I'm making her play every line in a different position. She has to go second through fifth position, each line in a different position. It's like, "Okay. You can play the anime song, but you still got to work on your technique, so let's do it this way. Then, play through the whole thing in first position, because that's easy and it's going to feel fun, but as part of your homework, learn that line in fourth position, or learn that line in fifth position. Then, you get the benefit of learning a song you like, but also leveling up your technique, which is what you need to do in order to be able to play a certain music." So it's a fine line. We're always doing this balancing act as teachers to keep kids inspired, but also challenge them. Yeah.

Leah Roseman:

I also find it hard, because kids don't know what they want to do when they're 12, so I'd like to keep the door open, so if they decide to get serious in a couple years, they still have enough skill, but be nice about it. You know what I mean?

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I even wonder too, at 12 years old, I knew what I wanted to do. It didn't change for me, but most of my colleagues didn't know. But I also wonder if people would be more secure in knowing what they wanted if we encouraged them to talk more about what they want, because I don't think we do as parents, as educators.

I had this sort of thought recent in the last few years about young people, because we tell them how to do everything. We tell them how to tie their shoes, how to put on their underwear, how to put on their deodorant, how to brush their teeth, how to walk in a straight line, how to line up, how to write, how to use lines on a paper. I mean, literally every single moment of their life is dictated by an adult. So when you ask them what they want, can they really tell you? Have they ever really had a chance to say-"This is what I want." You figure kids have this very small window of life where they get to be totally creative and totally be a kid. And it's small. And that's why I think back to my son, and I think I just didn't give him enough time to be a kid in ways because by the time you get to adulthood, every single step of your life has been dictated by someone else, and then suddenly you're expected to decide what to do with your life, but you've never had a chance to really practice that. To me, it's like, I definitely understand what you're saying. You want to keep their skills sharpened.

But what we do know is when people decide they want to do something, they excel quickly, usually. When they really put their nose to the grind and, "Okay, I'm about to do this thing." If they have the right resources behind them, they can learn a year's worth of material in three months and two years worth of material in six months. I've done it, you know?

Leah Roseman:

Yep.

Leslie DeShazor:

But if you on the fence about what you want to do all the time, you just always doing stuff. And the question is that a good use of your time? Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. I think I'm trying to get out of that space of telling people what to do all the time. And in ways, they need to be guided, but in other ways, maybe we think we have the guidance that they need, and we don't. Maybe they have more of the answers within them and we need to help them get them out. I don't know.

Leah Roseman:

I was wondering, earlier in this conversation you were talking about your students, and I can relate. They're often what I would consider over scheduled. They do so many things, are excelling in so many areas. I'm wondering if a lot of them have enough space to just let their minds wander, which fosters creativity or enough time to even rest or-

Leslie DeShazor:

I think not. I think not. That's another reason why I've changed things. I had a student who came to me years ago. Her mom eventually took her to someone else because I refused to put more pressure on her. The mom really wanted me to, and I wouldn't because what happens a lot of times when you teach privately, I don't know if this happens to you, but kids will open up to you when their parent's not around and tell you basically, "SOS, this person's stressing me out." And sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. I know I stress my kids out sometimes. And they probably need someone they can go to and say, "My mother is making me crazy." I've had students who come to me. And they'll come into their lesson, their parents would be in the car, and we won't do that much. And I'm like, "Hey, if you need to just decompress a little, let's play a little, let's talk a little, that's fine." Because that kid could be on the verge of quitting because they're so stressed out.

To your question, I don't think kids nowadays have enough time to unwind and decompress and be creative. But then you also have phones, which destroys even my creativity. You know what I mean? It's like I have to intentionally put it down so I can make myself write music or read. But that's one that thing that I meant when I said, "I don't want to keep telling people what to do all the time." I feel like they get enough of that. And I don't know what the answers are, I don't have all the answers, but I know that what we're doing right now is not the answer. It's like we are just spinning our wheels in some things. And when it comes down to it, when we come into knowledge and we come into wisdom, it's because we really want it. It's because it's something that we're seeking, not because someone's throwing it in our face telling us we need this thing. In fact, that usually causes the opposite effect. And I don't think kids get enough time.

I look at the average school nowadays; they barely get a recess. And what people don't realize is that that stuff really negatively affects the kids' ability to learn. I'm teaching a violin class and I notice how many of the kids don't know their right from left, they don't know up from down, they don't understand directional words.

And I personally have seen the deterioration of that over time because more and more these kids don't get out and play. They don't spend time exploring, and so they're actually being robbed of the ability to be more intelligent because people think the more rigor you throw at them, the smarter they're going to be. But actually, it's the opposite because our brains don't work that way. Research have shown it a million times over, but we keep doing the same thing over and over again. Nobody learns from sitting at a desk for six hours every day being talked to. Are you kidding me? That's the most ridiculous way to ever think someone's going to learn. But we keep doing it.

And it's even worse for kids in impoverished areas or areas where there's lack of resources. They're still doing these factory, industrial-based sort of educations with these kids. And they take more and more away from them, their abilities to actually have art, have drama, have theater. Remember we used to recite poems and memorize poems? And these things all helped our development. But now it's just more math, more reading, more science, more... But it's like, think of all the interdisciplinarian ways you can teach a subject and actually cover... You can cover math, science, and history all in one lesson. It doesn't have to be this is math class, this is history class.

For me, as a musician, as the music teacher, that's the last thing I want to do is make my class just like that, more of that. Even I can't take it anymore. It's like, I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to teach kids Mary Had a Little Lamb anymore. I really don't want to teach Twinkle Twinkle anymore, but I'm still going to do it because kids actually like that song a lot. But it's like, what other ways can we inspire people to learn and also will help you? You'll grow, and you won't be so bored to death doing the same thing over and over again.

But no, I think today's world, the kids who are highly competitive, they are way overworked. My son was in sports, and it's just amazing. These kids, they start so young, they're getting college offers when they're 13 and 14 years old. They already know where they're going to school sometimes. And basically, someone's basically got a price on their head already to come to the university. It's bizarre to me.

Leah Roseman:

And for one sport. But maybe they would enjoy so many different ways of moving.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yep. And then there's the pressure on the kid because... It's just like with music; if you got a great violin, someone bought you a really expensive violin, the first thing they're going to say is, "I know you're not going to quit when I just bought you that expensive violin." Now you're beholden to this thing because you feel guilty because all these people have invested in you. And now you're afraid to say you don't want to do it anymore because people are going to say, "What? All the things that we've done for you, all the talent you have, how could you feel that way?" And as an adult, you get it because it's not easy to make a living in this world. If you have a special skill, you're better off than most people. But you can come back to things. It's not always the case that if you don't do it for a year that you're going to be doomed.

In fact, there's a guy who's in the DSO, I think his name is Cole Randolph. He's a cellist. And he came and talked to our students over the summer. He's amazing, amazing cellist. And he told us how he took... I'm going to say something insane like five years off and then decided to pick it back up his junior, senior year of high school, worked hard and got into Juilliard. That's what I mean, if somebody really wants to do something, they can do it and they don't need the same amount of time that someone who kind of wants to do it takes, so that says a lot, you know?

Leah Roseman:

Yeah.

Leslie DeShazor:

Obviously this kid was extremely talented before he stopped, but still, five years, that's a lot of time. But what was happening for him in those five years probably made him a better musician when he finally picked a cello back up. The road is interesting.

Leah Roseman:

In your life, Leslie, as a really busy freelancer and educator and parent, you're dealing with all the stress. I know one of the things you do is you jump rope really amazingly. I've seen your videos.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yes, that's the thing that I... I've always been really active. It helps my levels of stress, for sure, until it becomes a stressor, so I have to be careful because I think sometimes musicians have these addictive personalities where we go way too hard in the pain on everything we do. Working out is something that I've actually had to be really cautious about, not letting it consume my mind because I've done body building competitions. I've been very fit at different points, and that could become an obsession.

But jumping rope is I think appealing to me as a musician because it's rhythmic and there's a lot of variation that you can do with the rope. And it's portable, so when I've been on the road, I can just take you with me. I don't have to worry about going to a gym and I don't have to worry about carrying any equipment with me that's going to be heavy or in the way.

But I started watching... I've liked boxing in the past. I know that's probably controversial for some people, but I like boxing so I would watch Floyd Mayweather and Sugar Ray Leonard jump rope, and then that inspired me to start jumping. And then I would watch Floyd's videos. And then I think I got better than Floyd, and so then I start watching other videos. And that is definitely, for me, a decompressor, jumping rope, being active.

Dancing was for me, it was that for a long time. I love to dance. But I'm an active person, which is why I made that joke about an admin job, sitting at a desk being torture for me because I'm an outdoor person. If I had to take a job right now and it wasn't a music job and it was a job where you'd have to have a degree, I'd probably just do landscaping or something because I like being outside. It wouldn't bother me to do something where I'm outside all day. But sitting inside at a desk, that would make me feel too angsty and crazy.

And the pandemic made that even more obvious. I hated being in the house all day. I'm going to lose my mind. But yeah, jumping rope, it's fun. I like it a lot. I've actually inspired a lot of my colleagues to go get jump ropes. And some of them have actually stuck with it. When I was on tour this past spring, the band, we were all jumping rope on the rest stops and stuff, so that was fun. I think most people find it to be fun. And we do it a lot when we're kids in school, and then it's one of those things that you stop doing because you're not a kid anymore. And then people only associate it with boxing at that point, so people always say, "Are you a boxer?" "No, I just like doing this." You know?

Leah Roseman:

Yeah.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah, that's one of my little things that I do outside of music and mommy and just every day freelance. Freelance life is wild and can be stressful. That feeling of when your phone rings and it's a Saturday, 5:00, and you're like, I don't recognize that number. Am I supposed to be somewhere. You have this instant panic. Oh my God. You're always worried that you're going to forget something because you have... For me, I'm getting correspondence for a private event coming up. I'm going to University of Virginia in a week, I'm doing Hamilton coming up. I've got other things, and so I'm getting correspondence from all these various people. And I'm trying to make sure that I'm writing everything down and remembering everything, but it's like there's always this nagging feeling in the back of your mind, am I forgetting something?

And I have forgotten a rehearsal before and I was like, oh man, this feels weird. I don't think I'm supposed to just be not busy right now. Oh well, I'll just relax. And then my phone rang and I was like... And instantly, I knew exactly what I was missing. I was like, no. Run out the house with my instrument, sweating, sitting in the chair an hour late for rehearsal. Yeah, sometimes the freelance life can make you a little stressed.

Leah Roseman:

You're talking about kids learning through doing, and I ran across one thing you'd said in another context about teaching body percussion to kids to feel rhythm. How'd you do that with them?

Leslie DeShazor:

Basically, I thought about when we were younger, we did... I guess people call it hand jiving. And I just started trying to incorporate that into playing. Sometimes we'll do things like stomping quarter notes while playing eighth notes on your chest or doing larger motions with the hands while doing something with your feet. And basically it's fun, but also it's helping them to learn independence, coordination. It's developing their motor skills. Especially now, like I said, with these current kids, it's a little harder sometimes because they don't move around as much so they're not as coordinated sometimes.

But yeah, I was thinking about that. And then I went to some classes too when I was what at ASTA one year and found some really inspiring ideas from some of the workshops that I attended. I just took that and some things I knew from being younger and just made my own thing from it. I'm always going through different things with teaching because it also can depend on the students. Every classroom is different, every culture and every school is different, so some things that you did last year that worked with a group of kids might not work at all with this newer bunch of kids so you have to read the room a little, figure out where you can get them and then also show them other things.

But one thing I found is that most people like to sing, most people like to move around, and most people like to dance, they just don't like to dance in front of people. That's the thing. But when you're doing it in a group, you have the safety of having other people doing it at the same time.

With the elementary school kids and even sometimes with older kids, when I get up and I'm not fearful about it and I sing and we do our percussion and dance, usually they want to join in. They like it. That's one way that I get them kind of thinking about rhythm and pulse and being together because it's not a given for everybody, especially now. I don't know what your childhood was like, but when I was a kid we had songs that we sang on the playground. We had hand jiving, we had dances we did, we had school songs. You know what I mean? You were always participating in some kind of communal music making experience. That is not the case anymore. A lot of kids don't go into community spaces like that and make music with people or they don't have school songs that they sing. We had school songs we sang every pep rally in school. I don't think they do that anymore in schools. You realize when you teach music that that stuff, the absence of it actually makes it harder for you as a music teacher because a lot of things are not already in their soul in ways; you have to introduce it.

And then too culturally, the fact that I teach in a predominantly Mexican community, the songs that I know isn't necessarily songs that they know from childhood. They know different songs. That's why I say sometimes you got to figure out what's going to work for different classrooms because it's not always the same. But the body percussion is fun and singing. And over years, one great thing about people is I think some of us are better teachers than others, but I think everyone has a little bit of a teacher in them. Because if you ask people for information, they're usually really happy to give it. Even if they're terrible at explaining, most people are really happy to share for free information that they've acquired. When you talk to teachers, especially we love to share and bounce ideas, so I get a lot of my ideas from other people, and then I just put my own spin on it. I think some people might get ideas from me. I don't know.

Leah Roseman:

To close out, is there advice you might have given the young Leslie growing up in high school?

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah, definitely. I think I would have told the young Leslie not to lose her courage. Yeah. I was really brave when I was younger. And I'm still pretty brave, but I'm good at faking bravery. A lot of things I'm not fully convinced that I can do, but I will do anyway. I'm glad that my lack of bravery is not debilitating for me like it is for some other people. But even though I read really confident, I read really fearless sometimes, I go through a lot of inner dialogue about my ability to be able to do something.

I did a gig last week, and I felt like everybody on the stand was better than me. And I had to tell myself right before I played, "If they called you for this, that means they thought you were good enough, so why don't you think it?" And I just played. But I think that's when I said I think university zapped me a little bit. It took me a while to of regain my confidence because of all the criticism and competition. I think I would tell my former self not to lose your courage, don't lose who you are. Yeah.

Leah Roseman:

Well, I think bravery is being able to do something that's hard for you, not because it feels easy, so by definition, you're brave if you're trying things that feel challenging. But I think that imposter syndrome you're talking about, everyone who excels feels that at times, if not all the time. I know I do constantly.

Leslie DeShazor:

I agree. I think the bravery part for me, I robbed myself of a lot of opportunity because I never stepped out and did my own thing, I always followed other people's advice or followed what I thought was what I should do. This last year of me stepping out as an artist has been brand new for me. And it's been scary at times, but I've also been amazed at how receptive people have been.

When I did my own concerts during the pandemic, I sold concert tickets online, and sold a good number of them. And I was surprised that people really wanted to just watch me on a screen do my thing. And it was hard, but I'm glad I did it because it forced me out of the gig mentality of I'll get the call. I get called all the time and do gigs, so I don't have a shortage of gigs. Of course that could change, knock on wood. But because of that comfort level, sometimes what already is fear and self doubt can just be put on a back burner because you're working, you're playing music and you're content, for the most part. But you know can share so much more than you're sharing, but you're afraid to do it because you don't think you can.

Or it's always I'll wait till I'm better because I'm not good enough yet; I still need to do this or do that. And so that's where I feel like I've been inauthentic sometimes with courage or bravery that I present versus what I really feel. You know?

Leah Roseman:

Mm-hmm.

Leslie DeShazor:

But like you said, it's the bravery of doing the thing anyway. And I've often been very surprised at my own ability to just push myself to do things. And it makes me think about when I was in third grade and I broke my... fourth grade and I broke my back from jumping off of something.

Leah Roseman:

Oof.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah. But when I think back to that moment, I was in third grade, but the discovery of my back, the breakage and the fracturing didn't happen until fourth grade. But the story basically went there were boys saying that no girls were brave enough to jump off the slide. And I was like, "What?" And just marched up those steps and just jumped off that slide. And I just think back, I landed on my tailbone, I got up. It was excruciating. And I remember it very well because I said the words, "That didn't hurt." It was so painful. And then I went to the bathroom and literally balled because I was in so much pain. But then I was so embarrassed to tell my mother what I had done that I lived with back pain for a year.

Leah Roseman:

Wow.

Leslie DeShazor:

Yeah. But what I think about was that little girl who was like, "Yes, I can." And just, without even a thought, just jumped, which was not smart. But that was the kind of personality I had when I was a little girl. I never thought I couldn't do anything. And then little by little, you get broken down when people tell you or you get these grades or you get these marks or you lose this competition or you don't get this chair, or... You start to feel like diminished and diminished and diminished until then suddenly you don't think you can anymore because you've had these failures. And we glorify success so much that we forget to tell people that in success, there's a lot of not succeeding.

But yeah, that little girl definitely left the building in her college years. But I've reemerged in ways. And definitely I'm still fiery and I still have a lot that I offer, even when I don't believe in myself. But I've definitely gotten in a better place of believing in myself and also knowing sometimes when you're not able to do it, other people can believe in you, and it really helps you. Yeah.

Leah Roseman:

Well, Leslie, thanks so much for all your wisdom today. It was super inspiring. And I'm sure your students, you just inspire them every day. They're very lucky to have you.

Leslie DeShazor:

I hope. I hope I do. Thank you for having me. This has been fun.

Leah Roseman:

This episode is my 50th episode and the final one of season two. I'm wondering, have you taken a look at my unique perks on Patreon? My patrons support this work in such an important way, and I love getting to know my supporters personally. Did you know that you can buy beautiful organic cotton shirts in many different styles on my Etsy shop? And I have frequent merch giveaways. Please follow me on my socials or reach out to me through my website to learn more.

You can help the series find new listeners by sharing, following, and rating. Season three is coming out in January 2023 with a fascinating diversity of musicians and their perspectives on a life so enriched by music. Thanks for your support.