Mark Ferguson Transcript
Leah Roseman:
Mark Ferguson is a jazz pianist, trombone, composer, arranger, producer, and music educator. In this episode, you get to hear him perform three of his original compositions on piano. We talk about his mentors' perspectives on music education, and the interesting twists and turns in his varied career.
He's performed with many of the world's great artists, including Ella Fitzgerald, Tony Bennett, Gill Evans, Aretha Franklin, Rob McConnell, and The Boss Brass, Holly Cole, and Manteca. His website is linked in the description.
All these episodes are available on all the podcast players as well as video, and the transcripts are published to my blog. Everything's linked to my podcast website, Leahroseman.com, in the description. I've included timestamps in the description for all the many topics that we cover. Good morning, Mark Ferguson. Thanks so much for joining me.
Mark Ferguson:
Hi, Leah. Thank you for having me.
Leah Roseman:
So you-
Mark Ferguson:
Looking forward to chatting with you.
Leah Roseman:
... Yeah. Before we get into it, I'm sure you don't remember this, but I remember the very first time I met you. You know how we do so many wonderful concerts, and you often don't remember the great concerts, but the really bad ones you remember? This was a wedding gig.
Mark Ferguson:
I'm glad I could be part of your bad gig.
Leah Roseman:
Well, I think your part of the gig was great. That was what was so funny. I think it's the last gig I did, kind of like this soon after I joined the NAC Orchestra. My husband, Mark, and I were playing violin duet in the hallway of the Château Laurier.
Mark Ferguson:
Don't tell me, I was just going to say Château Laurier. I do remember.
Leah Roseman:
Really?
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And you were leading a big band. And I believe Kellylee Evans was singing with you.
Mark Ferguson:
Oh, is that right?
Leah Roseman:
And you were holding your trombone, and Mark said, "Yeah, I like he plays trombone and piano. He's really great..." You told me about Kellylee Evans, who I hadn't heard of before, who's a guest on this podcast. And you were having a great time.
Mark Ferguson:
It must have been-
Leah Roseman:
You had big ballroom with this big band, and we were in the hallway and we couldn't hear each other. I love that people hire live music for their weddings, but these people-
Mark Ferguson:
... Were we drowning you out?
Leah Roseman:
... Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
Were we drowning you out? I apologize for that.
Leah Roseman:
I believe you were in one room, and then in the other room there was another band, and then they just had us for like visual effect as people walk through, these two violinists.
Mark Ferguson:
Well, those were the days when they had live music in every room in the Château Laurier.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
It doesn't happen anymore.
Leah Roseman:
Actually in the '80s, there was an amazing jazz club there. I don't know if you were-
Mark Ferguson:
The Cock & Lion. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
... That's it. I used to go when I was a kid. Actually my dad used to take me-
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I was living in Toronto at the time, but they would book the same acts at Basin, sorry, Bourbon Street and on Queen Street West in Toronto, and then they would come to Ottawa. Yeah. And I saw a few acts at the Cock & Lion too. It was great. When I moved to Toronto and I could see all my jazz heroes for the price of a plate of spaghetti, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. It was so great. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
... So you grew up in Ottawa as well?
Mark Ferguson:
I did. I was born in Montreal and moved here when I was five, and lived here until I was 20 when I moved to Toronto.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. So you went to Humber College to study with one of your heroes?
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah, I did. Well, I went to Humber College because I'd heard it was the jazz school in Canada. And I didn't start studying with ... I think the guy who was the biggest influence on me was Jerry Johnson. He was my trombonist. And I started studying with him in my second year there. But it was just, it was a fantastic place to meet musicians, and just to play and learn. It was a great experience. That was late '70s, and then I was there in the early '80s too.
Leah Roseman:
When you started studying jazz trombone with him, I assume you started trombone in high school, had you done much jazz with the trombone yet?
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah, I had tried. I was sort of doing it on my own. I was just learning from listening to records and doing what I could. But I hadn't really studied with a jazz player at that point. I really started on piano and studied with a really great piano teacher, Lila Flat. It was a great name for a piano teacher, Mrs. Flat. And she got me started.
But at some point I got a fake book with lead sheets in it. And I showed her, I said, "I'm really interested in learning to do this." And I said, "What does the C major 7th mean?" And she said, "I have no idea." At that point I started just kind of spending a lot of time with the piano by myself, learning by trial and error. And I really was kind of self-taught in that way with jazz, I think.
Leah Roseman:
Were you still taking classical piano lessons at that point or did you drop it?
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I think I got to grade eight conservatory. I stopped when I was about 17, I guess. But I had a lot of really diverse influences in Ottawa. There's of course the school band. And then I joined the Ottawa Youth Orchestra. And I also joined rock bands. And in those days, horn bands were a big deal, Chicago, Blood, Sweat & Tears, Lighthouse.
And so I played all the funky little bars over in Hall when I was about 15, 16, underage. But the Ottawa House, the Standish Hall, Chaudiere Club, these places are all gone now. I really had kind of a diverse kind of musical experience. I've always loved a lot of different types of music, so it was a great training ground for me
Leah Roseman:
Were you playing trombone on all those gigs or sometimes keyboard?
Mark Ferguson:
I was playing mostly trombone at that point. And when I moved to Toronto, I didn't tell anybody I played piano, because I just wanted to concentrate on trombone. And in those days there was quite a thriving studio scene in Toronto. That was my idea, that I was going to move to Toronto and become a studio musician.
And I did do a lot of recording gigs. But early '80s, they came out with the DX7 and digital synthesis, and guys started creating jingles in their bedrooms. It just put a lot of musicians out of work at that point. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I was-
Mark Ferguson:
But I was just playing trombone in Toronto at the beginning.
Leah Roseman:
... Now, you just mentioned jingles, I was going to ask you about that later. Because you're a composer, and I know you've written some jingles as well as music for software.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I've written a few, not many, but I've written a few jingles. But I played on a lot when I was in Toronto. You just get called and go in at 9:00 o'clock in the morning, and you're out of there by 9:45 usually. Yeah, usually the rhythm section had already been in and the singers, and then they were just adding the horns afterwards.
Leah Roseman:
How was your family's, were they supportive of you playing in these bars when you were so young? How did that work out?
Mark Ferguson:
Surprisingly. I wouldn't be that lenient with my kids. But I'm not sure my mom really knew what I was getting into. She just knew I loved music, and they were very supportive. Actually, she and my dad did come to the Chaudiere Club in Hull to, well, in, Aylmer, I guess, to hear me. So they were very supportive.
And they would come out to the youth orchestra concerts, and they were extremely supportive. But yeah, I'm not sure she realized exactly how bad it was over there, like drug dealers at the door and motorcycle gangs. It was wild.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And-
Mark Ferguson:
But when you're that age, you don't really think about it, you just say, "Hey, I'm playing music for a living. They're paying me to play music." It's just, it was so great.
Leah Roseman:
... How much did you get paid for those kind of gigs?
Mark Ferguson:
I was afraid you'd ask me that. No, I have no memory of what I got paid, but I'm sure it was peanuts. But it was a great experience.
Leah Roseman:
You mentioned your trombone teacher in Humber. What were lessons with him like?
Mark Ferguson:
Well, one thing I loved about Jerry Johnson ... I first saw Jerry Johnson with Maynard Ferguson's band at the National Arts Centre, I guess, when I was a teenager. And so he was kind of an idol. And then when he came to teach at Humber, that was fantastic. And the one thing I remember about his teaching style that really worked for me, was that he would play at the lessons, all the time.
And so it was just, I wanted to sound like him. It was great to have that experience of having somebody who could, like a really virtuosic player standing beside you, and, "Oh, that's what the trombone is supposed to sound like." It was great in that way. And he was also in the house band at the Royal York Hotel.
And the Royal York Hotel in Toronto is one of the big CN Hotels that they built on the railway, like the Château Laurier in Ottawa. And they had a room called the Imperial Room, which was a beautiful, excuse me, a beautiful dining room. And they would book acts, like Ella Fitzgerald, Tony Bennett, Rosemary Clooney, Rita Moreno.
Jerry would hire me to play with the band when they needed another trombone player. And so that was a fantastic experience. I got to play with all these people, and really thanks to him.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I was going to ask you, because those names come up when you look up Mark Ferguson. It's funny, Maynard Ferguson comes up too when you Google your name.
Mark Ferguson:
Are you serious?
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
Oh my goodness. No relation.
Leah Roseman:
Well, because you type Mark Ferguson jazz. And then you know there's a guy in Australia, you know about this man?
Mark Ferguson:
Yes, I do. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
It's funny.
Mark Ferguson:
I saw that. Is he a talk show host?
Leah Roseman:
No, he's a jazz, pianist, who teaches at a university, and also composes and arranges.
Mark Ferguson:
Does he play trombone?
Leah Roseman:
I don't think he plays trombone. But he uses his middle name, Mark Simeon Ferguson, I believe.
Mark Ferguson:
Oh, really? Yeah, that's funny. There used to be a Mark Ferguson in Toronto who was a dancer, and we used to get each other's checks occasionally. He eventually changed his name to Mark Cassius. But I met him years later on a gig somewhere. Yeah, I guess Ferguson is a fairly common name.
Leah Roseman:
Well, its just funny in the music world.
Mark Ferguson:
And as you know, Mark is a very common name too. You're married to one.
Leah Roseman:
I was going to ask you Rob McConnell, because you studied arranging with him, right, in terms of your heroes in Toronto.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. He was the other big hero for me. When I was 19, I went out to a jazz clinic, a week-long jazz workshop in Fredericton with Phil Nimmons. And the staff were Rob McConnell, Moe Koffman, Guido Basso and Phil Nimmons group. There were only two trombonists there, myself and another guy. And so I was really like I had Rob to myself for a week.
And then I ended up driving back to Ontario with him, really getting to know him well. And he hired me occasionally for a few things in Toronto, not often. I got to play with the Boss Brass a few times. And I did get a Canada Council grant to study arranging with Rob, which was fantastic.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
That's great. I would go down to his place and spend the weekend. He'd make me dinner, and we get up the next morning and listen to ... Mostly we'd listen to music. It's amazing.
Leah Roseman:
And do you teach arranging, some of the things you learned from him in the way of teaching, do you use those techniques?
Mark Ferguson:
Absolutely. Yes, I do. And yeah, I actually play my ... Because I teach arranging at Carleton University, and I play a lot of Rob McConnell's arrangements for my students and we analyze them. And so yes, he was a huge influence, and also a great, fantastic trombone player too, valve trombonist.
Leah Roseman:
But he didn't play slide trombone, right? He played valve trombone?
Mark Ferguson:
Valve trombone. Yeah, he said he played slide trombone when he was a young guy, but at some point switched over to valve. And it really was his voice. It was really his sound. It really worked for him.
Leah Roseman:
But is it as expressive? You don't have the between the notes.
Mark Ferguson:
Well, you can't play glissando, but you have a lot more flexibility really because of the valves rather than having to work the slide. And I've tried it, but it's a very different animal, because as trombonists, we get used to articulating notes as we move the slide. And so having a valve combination and trying to articulate, it's very different. It's hard to describe, but I tried it and I just went back to slide, because it didn't feel right.
Leah Roseman:
In terms of like-
Mark Ferguson:
Also, it's hard to find instruments that are really in tune valve trombones, surprisingly. I don't know why that is.
Leah Roseman:
... Hmm. And do they bend notes with their embouchure, like for blues playing?
Mark Ferguson:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You can bend notes. You can flatten or sharpen a note with your embouchure. And of course on the slide trombone you can use your slide. And there's never any excuse. Well, it's like playing a string instrument. There's never any excuse for playing out of tune, because you should be able to find the pitch there somewhere.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. So you're sitting at your other main instrument, the piano.
Mark Ferguson:
Yes. Yes.
Leah Roseman:
Do you want to take a music break? Would you be willing to play for us?
Mark Ferguson:
Absolutely. I'd love to.
Leah Roseman:
What are you going to play?
Mark Ferguson:
Well, I'll play one of my own compositions. This is a tune that I called F Sharp, very unimaginative title. The reason I called it F Sharp is because it's ... I wanted to take one note as a pedal point and just see how I could work harmonies around that one note. And so it happens to be F sharp.
I'm going to turn my vocal mic off so that it doesn't pick it up. And let me know if the sound is okay. I'm cheating a little bit. I've got a chart in front of me, because it's been a little while since I played this tune. I did write it, but I'm going to read.
Leah Roseman:
Wow. Wonderful. Thank you.
Mark Ferguson:
Thank you, Leah. One last F sharp at the end.
Leah Roseman:
When you said you're reading the chart, it's a lead sheet with what seems to be a very fancy chord progression.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. It's just really, I don't know if you can see this, but it's really kind of a ... Oh, that's hard to read, isn't it? It's kind of a skeleton. It's just a melody with chord symbols written above it. And so it gives the performer a lot of chance to interpret it however I want to. And so it's never going to come out exactly the same two times in a row. It'll always be a little bit different. And there's a big section for improvisation in the middle there, I think you heard.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, it's such a cool idea to have that ostinato, that repeating, F sharp. And I was thinking jazz harmony, there's so many ... The chords get so dense. You get practically all the notes.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah, there's just so many possibilities. And something that I really like in music is when the harmony gets very, very dense, and then suddenly there's like a triad, and it just, it feels so fresh. And somehow just a very simple triad can sound really like a revelation, like the sun coming out, so fresh.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, it's so interesting to me because it's like you have a split personality of the horn player and then the keyboard player. Because you're a rhythm player, and all this harmonic complication and then just playing a horn line is different function.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I think it's good to have the two, because I've always found it gives me an insight into ... If I'm playing with the rhythm section, I know what the piano player is thinking and how he's feeling, and I'm trying to communicate with the other musicians. I think having the job of playing as a soloist, I guess, or a frontline player, and the job of having being in a rhythm section, it's good to have both perspectives so that, I think, it makes communication with the other musicians easier.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And you had a bit of a Latin groove going on in that tune as well.
Mark Ferguson:
A little bit. Yeah. It certainly wasn't a swing tune. It was very much a straight eighth kind of feel.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Do you still have your Latin band, "Los Gringos" or?
Mark Ferguson:
We've sort of put that on the back burner. I think the last time we played was probably before the pandemic. But I am playing with a great Cuban pianist, Miguel De Armas, who's living in Ottawa now. And he is from Havana originally. And his compositions and arrangements are just beautiful really. It's the real thing. It's Cuban music.
Leah Roseman:
Are you playing trombone with them?
Mark Ferguson:
Yes, that's right. Yeah. And I also play with a band called Manteca, which is a Toronto band, and a band that I ... They've been together since the late '70s, and I was a big fan. I owned their albums and used to go and hear them whenever I could. And I joined the band in 2006, I believe.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
I've been with them for, yeah, a decade and a half now.
Leah Roseman:
I was going to say congratulations on the relatively new album, 2020. I bought it. I've been listening to it.
Mark Ferguson:
Oh, great. Oh, great. That's good. Yeah. We recorded, I guess, four or five albums since I was in the band, since I joined the band. And we have something nice in ... We're playing a couple of jazz festivals in Markham and Prince Edward County in August. And then in October, we're going back into the studio. And rather than recording an album, we're doing three short sort of TV shows or podcasts.
I don't know what you call them anymore, but with special guests. In the past they've been kind of Canadian artists. And I believe this time we're going to be playing with some of the offspring of the members of Manteca. Because a lot of them have really gone on to do some great things, the next generation.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, that's really cool. So yeah, it's The Twelfth of Never is the album I was referring to.
Mark Ferguson:
Right. I guess that is the most recent one. Yes.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. It lists you as playing piano, trombone, base trombone and I think vibes, unless that was another album.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. No, that's right. I play some vibraphones. I don't have any technique on the vibraphone, but I'm able to add colors. And it's a nice color. There are a lot of different colors in Manteca, because Colleen Allen who's the reed player plays everything, piccolo, flute, alto flute, alto saxophone, tenor saxophone, base clarinet and accordion. There're just a lot of colors in the band, and vibraphone is one that adds a nice kind of texture.
Leah Roseman:
And there's a lot of hand percussion too as opposed to drum sets.
Mark Ferguson:
Yes. Yes. There's a drummer and a conga player, who also plays all kinds of toys, different percussion instrument. And Matt Zimbel, who is the leader, plays congas and some other Latin percussion things.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. So that must have been really cool that you had been listening to their albums and you were able to join the band.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I was surprised to get the call. I was living in Aylmer at the time, and Matt called and asked if I wanted to join the band. I said, yes, of course. Yeah, it's been a really nice experience.
Leah Roseman:
I was curious if they're still based in Toronto, because on Bandcamp, it says Montreal is their ...
Mark Ferguson:
Matt lives in Montreal. Everyone else lives in Toronto. I live in Ottawa. But most of the band are in Toronto. That's where we rehearse. And most of our gigs are around the Toronto area.
Leah Roseman:
And you're still listed that you teach at McGill part-time.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I haven't taught there since before the pandemic. I'm still on their roster, but at this point, I wasn't ... I used to take the train down every Monday morning and teach four students, then come home on the train. And it just with COVID and everything, I just didn't want to be doing that. I don't know whether I will be teaching there in the future. It's hard to say.
Leah Roseman:
I was just curious how you managed all this commuting, because you do so many things.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. It was a good commute because I was on the train at ... I lived near the train station. I was on the train at 6:00 o'clock and home by 5:30. So it was like putting in a full work day. And it was just a good experience to get out of the city and to be around other musicians and meet students from ... Well, at McGill, they're from all over the country, so that was a nice experience.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I went to McGill for my undergrad, and I did take a great jazz history course, which was not required, but-
Mark Ferguson:
Yes. Oh, with Andre White?
Leah Roseman:
... No.
Mark Ferguson:
Oh, okay.
Leah Roseman:
Fred.
Mark Ferguson:
Great. Yeah. Did you enjoy it?
Leah Roseman:
I enjoyed it very much. It was one of my most memorable courses for sure. But-
Mark Ferguson:
Oh, that's good.
Leah Roseman:
... I was thinking about how siloed classical world is, and it's really unfortunate.
Mark Ferguson:
It is. That's interesting you mentioned that, because I'm playing at Music and Beyond tomorrow night with a colleague from Carleton, James McGowan, who has written, I guess you'd call it a suite, several pieces for string quartet rhythm section, jazz rhythm section and four horns. No. Yeah, four horns. That's right.
Ed Lister, Petr Cancura, Mark Trammell and myself. And he's playing piano. And it's very much a fusion of classical and jazz and gospel. And I'd say there are some funk or rock elements in there too. You do hear occasionally a successful fusion of the two musics. And I know you just worked with Esperanza Spalding, am I correct?
Leah Roseman:
Oh yeah, we did. But I don't mean that we don't play stuff together, what I mean is in our education.
Mark Ferguson:
Ah, I see. Yeah, that's interesting. I did my degree at Ottawa U, and it was exclusively classical. And then I went to Humber. Humber, actually we had to combine the two. I took a music history course, and I played a lot of the Bach cello suites and all kinds of classical music.
They certainly weren't snobbish about like, "All you're going to do is jazz." I love that. I don't like those kind of barriers between different types of music. I'm a big fan. And I think it's not at the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago. I don't think education is as siloed as you put it. It seems like there's more of a mixture now.
Leah Roseman:
I'm glad to hear that. I don't know. You would know better than me about that.
Mark Ferguson:
Well, certainly at Carleton, it's a pretty broad kind of department. There's a singer songwriter program, and jazz. There's even a Celtic studies program. They're really mixing everything together. It's a real kind of melting pot, mosaic. Melting pot, I guess. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Megan Jerome was also-
Mark Ferguson:
Megan was a student at Carleton.
Leah Roseman:
... Yeah, she mentioned how great a jazz theory teacher you were. And another guest, Kellylee Evans also mentioned ...
Mark Ferguson:
Yes, Kellylee was coming to my classes for a few years there. I mean, she doesn't need it. She's got this amazing career, and she's so good at what she does. But I thought it was really great that she wanted to learn more about the music, get deeper into it.
Leah Roseman:
Well, I think someone like her, she's so incredibly intuitive and just learns by osmosis. But she hadn't exactly learned to read music until very late in career.
Mark Ferguson:
Right. Well, that makes me think of somebody I worked with back in the '80s, Ella Fitzgerald. She didn't read music at all, and learned everything by ear and was perfect. Incredible.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I was wondering in terms of your teaching, we talked a little bit about orchestration, having students listen. And I was hearing at Carleton the way the theory is taught is quite oral as well, which is so different than the way I learned theory, which was so dry and all written and ... Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I don't teach the first year theory courses. So most of the dry stuff, just learning the basics, hopefully is already taken care of. I make sure that theory is not just taught in a vacuum. We listen to a lot of music. That was one of the things actually. It's kind of the opposite of what we're talking about.
But coming up in the conservatory system playing piano, we just learned pieces, and the great selections. You know the way the conservatory book was set up with Baroque and Renaissance, and then the middle was Romantic, and then the last part was 20th century.
But there was never any discussion of what the harmonies were, or why they worked the way they did, why this chord leads to the next chord. I would've loved to have had more of that kind of theoretical knowledge back then that just would make more sense of the music to me. It was beautiful music to play, but you're kind of doing it by a rote. You're learning the notes, but not really learning why the composers chose those notes.
Leah Roseman:
One thing that always amazes me about jazz players who do a lot of gigs, like yourself, is how you have such a library of tunes in your head with all those progressions.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. Well, I was really fortunate to work with, for over 20 years, I guess, with a great saxophone player named Hugh O'Connor, who he died in his '90s just a few years ago. We always had a gig somewhere. We played Clair de Lune in the market for many years. And we also had a Friday or Saturday or Sunday gig.
He didn't bring out charts. There was no music. So he'd say, "Do you know this tune? Do you know Body and Soul?" And I'd say, "Yeah, I think so." And if I didn't know a tune, I'd go away, and next week when I came back, I would've learned it. But just, when you play with music in front of you all the time, it's a crutch.
You don't ever get away from the music. If you want to learn to play without music, you got to take the sheet music away. So that was great for me to learn to. He was very patient. I would play horribly sometimes and screw up.
But he would play on his horn what the chords were, outlining the chords. And he knew all the hip chords, all the great, the really good sounding harmonizations. I was really fortunate to play with him for years, and that's where I learned a lot of the repertoire.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. And this might sound silly, but even the name of the tune, I don't know how you sort that out. Is it like automatically once you know the tune, you know the name?
Mark Ferguson:
I'm really bad with remembering titles of tunes. I always remember the key that it's in. But I'll be on the bandstand sometimes and say, "Let's play The Tune in F."
Leah Roseman:
That goes like this.
Mark Ferguson:
The Tune in F. Yeah, it goes like this. Right. Yeah. Well, I think learning the titles of the tunes, something that I think is really important, and a lot of jazz musicians feel this way is learning the lyric to a tune. Because it gives you another frame of reference. You don't get lost in the tune if you're thinking of lyric in your head.
In fact, there's a famous story about, I think it was Ben Webster, who was a great tenor saxophone player who played with Duke Ellington and all kinds of people. And he was at a jam session. He was playing a tune and he just stopped playing at some point. And someone asked him afterwards, "Well, why'd you stop playing?" And he said, "I forgot the words."
So that's a really good kind of indication of how important the lyric can be. And also you want, if you're playing "My Funny Valentine", for instance, it's kind of the lyrics are very self-deprecating and kind of sad in a way.
And if you're playing it, it just has nothing to do with the original concept of the tune. I think that's another important reason to learn, the lyrics. And I always try to get my students to learn the lyrics. Not all successfully, but I try.
Leah Roseman:
Do you sing when you're learning a new tune?
Mark Ferguson:
Not really, but I listen to a lot of recordings of ... If I want to learn a tune, I'll go on ... Because everything is available on YouTube now. It's great. I'll go to a version by Frank Sinatra, because usually he'll sing it pretty straight, or I won't listen to Billie Holiday so much because she changes all the melody notes.
I try to listen to several versions, but I start with somebody who I know is going to sing the melody pretty much the way it was written. And then of course learning being able to play a tune in different keys is really important too. I've worked with a lot of singers.
And singers are famous for doing tunes in not the standard keys. So that's been a great experience having to learn "Autumn Leaves" or whatever key it is in. You get to know the function of the chord rather than the chord itself, and that means you can play it in any key.
Leah Roseman:
That was going to be my next question, was about transposition and working with singers.
Mark Ferguson:
Yes. Yeah, it's an unfortunate fact that most of the tunes that young jazz musicians learned from the fake books were written by males, because they're songs from the '30s and '40s. Not exclusively, but a lot of them were.
And so they're generally about a fourth or a fifth away from the standard female voice. Most people will learn. Let's see, for instance, "Misty". Most people will learn it in E-flat.
But you get on a gig and the singer is going to say, "Let's do "Misty" in A-flat or A," or something. Knowing that the first chord is the one chord, it's the one court. If I'm in A-flat, I know it's the one chord.
I'm not thinking it's an E-flat chord, I'm thinking it's a one chord. And so it takes a lot of practice to get good at that, but it's just a matter of doing a lot plain tunes in different keys.
Leah Roseman:
Is it easier as a keyboard player than as a horn player, but then you have more hands to play?
Mark Ferguson:
I think it is, because the piano was a visual instrument, and you can see what you're doing. And you've got the whole orchestra in front of you really. If you're playing one note at a time, I think it can be tougher.
That's why whenever I teach, because sometimes I teach, and someone will come to me, who's a singer or a saxophone player or whatever, a bass player, and I always get them to play some piano.
It's really important I think that every musician plays piano. They don't have to be great pianist, but just to have some keyboard technique. Not even technique, keyboard harmony knowledge really.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I'm kind of curious about voicing. Because for someone like me who's super basic pianist, yeah, I can like plunk down the chords, but I can't begin to think about how to ... Could you maybe give us an-
Mark Ferguson:
Sure, go ahead.
Leah Roseman:
... Well, maybe just give us an example of a standard tune and show us different ways you can voice it so it'd be like-
Mark Ferguson:
Sure. Well, I was talking about "Misty". Why don't we look at that? Most people, when they learn chords, they learn them in root position. And unfortunately, root position chords are probably the worst sounding chords you can have. The first chord in "Misty" is an E-flat major 7th. That's root position.
But if I leave out the 5th and the root in my right hand, and just make a really simple sounding voicing, so I've got the root in my left hand and the 3rd and the 7th of my right hand, it's much clearer, more transparent than ...
Yeah, voicings, that's a huge area of study. And listening to the great ones like Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson, people like that, they've just put so much thought into voicings. And it's not almost just about playing the chord, it's about the inner moving voices. It can be as much about counterpoint as about just harmony.
Leah Roseman:
... And you do a lot of arranging. Is that a large part of what you're doing? And are you doing it at the piano?
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. Well, a lot of my arranging now I do at the computer, but I was an arranger pre-computer. I'm glad that I had to do it on staff paper without being able to hear it played back by the computer program. Yeah, I guess I do still arrange at the piano, but I guess you get to a certain point where you know some voices are going to work and some aren't.
And then sometimes it'll surprise you. You'll write something that you don't think is going to work and it sounds great. And sometimes I'll write something, I'll voice everything out in very lush voicings, dense harmonies, and then go back and realize that if I just had everybody playing in unison, it would've sounded way better. So sometimes you'll put a lot of work in and realize, "Ah, I didn't have to do all that work."
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I'm curious how you balance ... How do you stay in shape as a trombone player? It takes a lot of work just to-
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I mean, I have to play every day. Well, you talk to any brass player and you'll know that maintenance is a really important thing. Long tones, flexibilities, tonguing exercises. Just to keep this in shape, keep the embouchure in shape. Yeah, it was interesting during the pandemic, because for the first time in my life, I didn't pick up the trombone for about over a month, and I'd never done that before. I had to kind of get my chops back afterwards. But there just weren't any gigs, and everybody was on pause for a little while there.
Leah Roseman:
... Did you still practice piano or still play?
Mark Ferguson:
I still played piano. Sure. During the pandemic, I did a lot online. People would either send me tracks and they'd ask me to play on the tracks or, or through Syncspace.live, which was a great platform for doing concerts online.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I've heard you so many concerts on Syncspace. And in my interview with Diane Nalini, of course we talked about going-
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. Yeah. She and her husband Adrian have been absolutely fantastic. It was really a boost to all of us musicians, just to have a place to play, and to keep our spirits up and to be able to express ourselves. I really have to thank them for that.
Leah Roseman:
... Were you teaching online a little bit through the university?
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I didn't enjoy it, but I taught two courses in the ... Well, from each semester. And it was a lot of work. Just getting the technology together was a lot of work. I just didn't get to know my students. And basically I was recording classes and they could watch them whenever they wanted. I never really got to know my students, and I didn't enjoy that part of it. And then this past year we were back in the classroom masked, but at least we were in the classroom together, so that was better.
Leah Roseman:
Do you see changes in our industry going forward as a result of this pandemic that will stay?
Mark Ferguson:
I think that some of the online platforms are going to stay and probably get better. Well, yourself, you're doing these podcasts and I would imagine that was started during the pandemic, am I right?
Leah Roseman:
Definitely. Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. So yeah, I think one of the great things about being able to play online is I was doing a lot of concerts with musicians I'd never met before who live in Toronto or Montreal or even New York. I think it makes the world a smaller place. You can play with people who aren't in the same vicinity as you are. I can see it being a real boost for that. But still, there's nothing like playing together in the same room with people.
Leah Roseman:
And the audience right there reacting.
Mark Ferguson:
And an audience. Yes, exactly.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Well, we talked a little bit about voicing and also in terms of being a rhythm section. I'd love for you to play again. I was just listening very carefully to the way you varied. You had this ostinato, but still the rhythmic feel kept changing, because that's the brilliance of a great rhythm players that it's not all the same.
Mark Ferguson:
Right. I'm sorry. Is there a question in there or?
Leah Roseman:
There's going to be a question. Yeah. At this point, I imagine it's not a conscious process, but maybe at the beginning it was, that you'd think, "Oh, I better mix it up," or learning from great listeners?
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. No, that's an interesting question, because you really, as a jazz musician, you have to learn the language of bebop, the language of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. Excuse me, and then kind of not forget it, but internalize it, and not have to think about it a lot as you're playing.
And of course, with any type of music, time is so important. Rhythm is the most important thing. That's why I think it's important to play with others. I've heard some good players who didn't have good time because they played by themselves mostly.
I really think that rhythm is the most important component of music beyond harmony or anything. And it doesn't matter what kind of music you're playing. It's the most important thing. I mean, I've always practiced with a metronome to get that kind of strict metronome time together.
Of course you don't want to do that when you're playing for real, but that was one of the ways I worked on my time. And some people don't believe in using metronomes. I just think it's so important to trust other people's time when you're playing with them.
Leah Roseman:
But I mean, the feel, just the type of groove you're giving to music and the way it gets changed up. That's what I'm talking about.
Mark Ferguson:
Oh, I see. Yeah, groove. Well, again, I think that's something that you learn from listening to a lot of music. And yeah, I don't know. I'm having trouble answering that question. Okay. Yeah, I think it is a real matter of listening and getting to know the music.
For example, playing with Miguel's Cuban band, for a lot of us Canadian musicians, it's really we're like fish out of water, because we're trying to get these rhythms that we just didn't grow up with.
And the Cuban guys in the rhythm section are playing amazing things. Sometimes it's hard to figure out where one is. I think it really has a lot to do with listening. That's what I would say.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Osmosis as well as conscious, focused listening.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. You have to immerse yourself in the music, that's for sure.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I think a big loss in this pandemic for young musicians has been the lack of being able to play together. Bands were canceled and-
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. Right.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I felt so sorry for a lot of the high school musicians who finally had a chance to play with the band and there was nothing for two or three years.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah, I forgot what ... Can I go somewhere else? I've forgotten where I was going?
Leah Roseman:
Well, I was going to ask you about doing high school clinics, because I know it's something you've done in your career. And I was kind of curious the kind of things you on, because these kids are at a pretty basic level usually.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. They're usually really pretty curious, and they kind of, they know they want a piece of what we're doing, but they don't know how to get there. Again, I just really recommend, I talk about listening to ... Do you know who Louis Armstrong is? Do you know who Duke Ellington is? Do you know who Count Basie is? Do you know who Charlie Parker is? Miles Davis.
And just trying to make them aware of ... Because we're not exposed to any of that type of music on the radio or ... You have to seek it out. That's why at the clinics, I really talk a lot about the history of the music. And we get to the nuts and bolts of chords and scales and all that stuff. But really trying to get them to hear music that I think that a lot of them are really going to ...
It's not going to connect with everybody, but a lot of them are really going to get turned on by something they haven't heard before. And if I can expose them to something like that, I feel like that's, as a young musician, that's what I appreciated was having an older musician ask me if I'd heard so and so.
And then kind of usually it would be I'd moved back because ... I've heard Miles Davis. Who came before ... Oh, Dizzy Gillespie. Who came before Dizzy Gillespie? Roy Eldridge. Who came before Louis Armstrong? So working your way through the history of the music is a great thing. So that's what I try to do at clinics, make the students aware of the history and the tradition.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Could you play another tune for us? Would you be willing to-
Mark Ferguson:
I'd love to. Yes. Yeah. I'm going to play a tune that I wrote, I guess about, probably about 10 years ago now. And I'd been on the road in California for about three weeks. And I came home and was with my family, and around all my stuff and my piano. My wife had gone to work. The kids had gone to school.
And I sat down at the piano, and the piece just kind of wrote itself. It was kind of a celebration of being at home again. And so I called it "Home". I've since learned that there are about a million songs out there called "Home", but this is my version of home.
And I've recorded this a couple of times. I recorded it on an album, a duo album with Mike Tremblay, and then again, I did it with my trio, with John Geggie and Scott Latham. This is Home. I'm going to turn the vocal mic off.
Leah Roseman:
... Gorgeous. Thanks so much. What a great tune.
Mark Ferguson:
Thank you, Leah. Big C major triad at the end.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, so definitely some gospel sonorities in there.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it just really, it kind of ... I hope it expresses the kind of exuberance I felt at being home after being away for a long time.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And I think it expresses a peaceful kind of-
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. Good.
Leah Roseman:
... I was trying to think who it was. I think it was Kellylee Evans was saying she learned that you shouldn't tell an audience too much about a tune before you present it because it'll bias them.
Mark Ferguson:
True. And at the same time, sometimes it's nice to set up something so that people have kind of an image in their mind. I guess I'm saying the opposite of what Kellylee was saying. When Kellylee does a tune, she has the advantage of having a lyric too I think when you're playing instrumental music.
I know people love it when you talk to them at a concert. And I notice in the NAC O now, that Alexander Shelley is very good at that, setting up a piece of music so that people have some frame of reference when they listen to an instrumental piece of music, and it gives you something to think about when you're listening to it.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I really like that. And certainly when I play chamber music concerts, really it's helped me with my nerves, although it's a different kind of nerves to talk to people, but you feel more connected with them.
Mark Ferguson:
Absolutely. Yes. The audience certainly appreciates it.
Leah Roseman:
And actually speaking of nerves, so you're one of these people that doesn't really get nervous performing for people. But when you were younger and you were learning the ropes, it must have been a different ... Like learning to improvise in public.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah, that's pretty scary. But to be honest, I was just so in love with it and so kind of driven. I was on one track. And I just, I didn't really think about it all that much, I don't think. I was just really having fun, and trying to learn and get better. And that's what I'm still doing, trying to learn and get better.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Do you have any upcoming projects or are you writing new tunes for a new album?
Mark Ferguson:
I'm thinking about recording a bunch of solo piano pieces that I've written over quite a few years. And they're all kind of representative of members of my family, my immediate family and my extended family. And they're not necessarily jazz pieces. I wouldn't know how to describe them.
But I'm thinking about doing that as a project over the next little while. And other than that, it's mostly working with the bands that I play with, Manteca and Miguel De Armas. And there's also a really great band that I write for sometimes, Ed Lister's Prime Rib band. Yeah, it's a big band and it's really a neat project.
Leah Roseman:
I just remembered. It was not Kellylee Evans that said that, it was Diane Nalini. Because she was saying there's certain songs she sings that have a completely different meaning than people ascribe to them.
Mark Ferguson:
Ah, interesting.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I was going to ask you about the whole big band thing, because a lot of the playing you've done and is like, yeah, this totally different sound to this intimate solo, piano or small ensemble that I've mostly heard you play. Do you feel like there's different parts of your personality that come out?
Mark Ferguson:
That's a very good question. I don't think I'd be the best judge. I think an audience member would be the best judge. But I think that I probably have a different voice on the piano than I do on the trombone. I find playing a wind instrument is much more physical thing. And so I know I'm a fairly gentle piano player. I have a fairly soft touch.
I don't bang on the piano at all. I would think that I'm probably more aggressive when I'm playing a wind instrument than I'm on the piano. Maybe that seems like an obvious thing that you would be. I'm not sure.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Well, it's also just the sound. These bands are such a different art form really.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I don't do a lot of big band playing anymore. When I was in Toronto, I played in a lot of big bands. I guess there were just more musicians doing that back then. But really, we play once a month at a club on Bank Street, and it's really, it's like a party every time.
Leah Roseman:
I'm curious about how the, not the demographics, but how popular jazz is. Because I've always thought of it as very niche. But what's interesting, what I was looking on YouTube for like ... I was literally looking for YouTubes about jazz harmony, because I was curious to learn some more. These videos are getting like half a million hits. Who are these people?
Mark Ferguson:
I know. Well, the world is a big place and they they've got the whole world as their audience now. Yeah, it is a niche music. Absolutely. But I know I'm always checking out YouTube. I'm basically getting free lessons on YouTube all the time. There's so many people doing really good things on jazz education really, I guess.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And I guess a lot of rock and pop players might be interested in learning more in that direction, even if they're not jazzers.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah, I think so. I think you're right.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And I noticed with orchestra music, actually our music director now, Alexander Shelley, he's actually a jazz pianist. I don't know if you know that about him.
Mark Ferguson:
We did a gig one time a few years ago where ... Oh my goodness, I'm going to forget the name of the singer. It was a female Canadian jazz singer on the bill. I've forgotten her name now. And he played piano with her. And yeah, it sounded good.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, but he'll be looking at the score and he'll just call out the name of the chord, which is clearly a jazz chord. And I think it's very easy for him to memorize very difficult scores, which really impresses me. I'm wondering if that training might have helped him.
Mark Ferguson:
I'm sure it did, because I think it's a way of ... I mean, the whole jazz chord system is a way of codifying harmonies. I heard you guys play the Rite of Spring a month ago. And what is it? That's an E-flat 7th over E. But I'm sure Stravinsky didn't think of it as that. Jazz harmony gives you a way of identifying a chord.
And it's not always accurate, but at least gives you an idea of it. I can see that having training in jazz piano, you'd be able to look at the score and figure out what you could call that chord basically. And it's not always totally accurate, but it's, yeah, it's a way to codify it.
Leah Roseman:
You said you were mainly self-taught with jazz piano, but did you study jazz piano with someone at a certain point?
Mark Ferguson:
It's a funny, I had to think about that. No, I never did. Like I said, when I moved to Toronto, I didn't tell anybody I played piano for the first several years, because I just wanted to concentrate on the trombone. But at some point people started asking me to do gigs.
Kind of a dark period where I did a couple years in lounges, doing lounges, which it was with singers. And it was a good education, but it was mostly playingTop 40 stuff in lounges. That was a way to make a living. And in one respect, it wasn't a great path because I was always busy six nights a week.
And somebody called me for a great jazz gig and I couldn't do it. So yeah, I'm not sure about whether that was a good move or not. But it's all part of the learning process.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. When you got out of that gig, did you just quit Cold Turkey or were you able to kind of phase out of that?
Mark Ferguson:
I quit pretty much Cold Turkey because I decided I wanted to ... I came back to Ottawa and finished my degree, wanted to get a little more education, and that sort of sent me on a different path. In Toronto at that point, there were lounges, so many venues to play. I could play six nights a week with different singers all the time.
There just isn't that anymore. In a way, I feel for the young musicians because there aren't venues for them to play. Even when I was in my teens, every weekend I could go out and play and make a few bucks, but there just really isn't that anymore.
Leah Roseman:
What kind of advice are you giving young players career-wise?
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah, I try not to give them advice career-wise, because I don't want to be a downer. And so I try to concentrate on the art of what they're doing. I don't think many of us get into music because we want to get rich. There are a lot of other more stable avenues to go than music if you want to do that.
I try to just concentrate on the music, and I think that's why they ... People get into music because they just can't help themselves. They really want to play music. That's what I try and concentrate on is the music, and not so much giving them any big career advice.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Do you have a certain routine yourself in terms of improvisation or keeping your chops up in the piano?
Mark Ferguson:
Not really. Mostly it's just playing with other people doing gigs. Actually, one of the projects that I'm really enjoying right now, I bought a, during the pandemic, I bought a Hammond SK2, which is a dual manual organ. And I have a trio called the Vista Organ Trio with Scott Latham on drums and Alex Moxon on guitar, and I'm really enjoying that right now. Sorry, I started talking and I forgot your question.
Leah Roseman:
Oh, I was going to ask you about that organ actually. I was curious about your routine in terms of practicing your gigs.
Mark Ferguson:
Oh, yes. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Mostly, it has to do with getting together with people and doing gigs, or doing rehearsals or jam sessions. I probably do more of that than actually sitting at the piano figuring out how to improvise better. I should probably do more of that. But yeah, it mostly comes down to playing with other people.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And as a composer, a lot of my guests are improvisers and composers, so I'm always curious how that intersects for people.
Mark Ferguson:
Right. Well, I find composition a very insular thing. I can't write with other people. I know some people do that, but I have to really ... When I write something, it takes a long time. I sleep on it, come back to it, edit it, usually take out a whole lot of notes that shouldn't be there or are unnecessary.
And then I'm constantly editing. Always changing harmonies and melody notes and that type of thing, adding sections. So yeah, I find that playing music is a very social thing for me and writing is very much insular.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Do you have any other creative pursuits you do for fun that are-
Mark Ferguson:
Creative? Well, I'm a cyclist. I cycle just about every day. I try and always get in at least 20 kilometers every day. I really enjoy that. And I like cross country skiing and skiing in the winter. But as far as creative, I'm not a ... My wife is an artist. She's a visual artist. She paints. And I have no talent for that whatsoever.
I've made some feeble attempts, and that's not what I'm good at. And, yeah. Really, I've always, like I said before, I've always been kind of on this music track and I don't think about a lot of other things.
Leah Roseman:
... I guess the cycling, I was curious, because you always seem fit and healthy actually. Because the late hours, and the early mornings, taking the train and all that, it takes a toll, and can be hard to ...
Mark Ferguson:
Well, the best thing for our health as musicians who were working clubs was when they banned smoking.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
I was never a smoker. I always hated cigarette smoke, hated coming home and having to put my clothes in another room because they smelled like smoke. And that was absolutely the healthiest thing that could have happened for musicians like myself.
Leah Roseman:
Well, would you like to leave us with one last tune before we close out this conversation?
Mark Ferguson:
What could I do? Is there anything that you would like to hear? Do you have a request?
Leah Roseman:
Well, actually-
Mark Ferguson:
Put you on the spot now, didn't I?
Leah Roseman:
... Yeah. You know what, there's a song that was played at our wedding, "You'd Be Nice To Come Home To", which is a great classic.
Mark Ferguson:
Ah, yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Do you know that one?
Mark Ferguson:
I do. I don't know if I know it well enough.
Leah Roseman:
Then-
Mark Ferguson:
And that's written by? Who wrote that one? Do you remember?
Leah Roseman:
... I don't know. I know Mark arranged it for brass quartet actually.
Mark Ferguson:
Right.
Leah Roseman:
But-
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah. I certainly know, but not well enough to play it on the spot right now.
Leah Roseman:
... Well, how about like a blues tune, like different style?
Mark Ferguson:
Sure. Sure. I'll play a blues for you. Actually, I just thought of something. I'll play a blues that I wrote. If people who are listening to this live in Ottawa, they'll understand the title, it's called "Take The O Train". And it has sort of some of the elements of the it hasn't been a smooth ride, the train breaking down and so on.
So yeah, this is a blues with a bridge actually. The bridge is typically 12 bars. It's an 11 bar blues with a bridge, so it's a little bit outside of the regular blues. "Take The O Train".
Leah Roseman:
All right. Thanks so much.
Mark Ferguson:
My pleasure.
Leah Roseman:
Well, it's really great getting to know you better today. And I'm sure my audience is going to so appreciate all your music as well.
Mark Ferguson:
Oh, well, I really enjoyed it, Leah. Thank you for asking me. I appreciate it very much. It's interesting to actually have somebody ask you to talk about yourself.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, it's different than just-
Mark Ferguson:
It is. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
... Yeah.
Mark Ferguson:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Okay now.
Mark Ferguson:
Thanks very much. I really enjoyed it. It's great talking to you.
Leah Roseman:
I hope you enjoyed this episode. And you should check out some of my other interviews with jazz musicians, including Kellylee Evans, Roddy Ellias, Eva Slongo, Diane Nalini, and Tracy Silverman. Please tell your friends about these episodes, and sign up for my podcast newsletter to find out about upcoming artists and more, all linked at my podcast website, Leahroseman.com, which is in the description of this episode.
