Meg Okura Interview

Below is the complete transcript for my 2024 interview with violinist and composer Meg Okura. The link to the video, podcast, and show notes is above.

Meg Okura (00:00:00):

I appreciated perfection, meaning that they would play thousands of shows, right? And that every time they get together, I watch. Each act has a coach, and then they watch the video and they scrutinize everything. I mean, after a thousand shows, can you just slack off? But they don't, and they're so serious, and also so disciplined. It was a world I had never seen before. And also it's about perfection, but also about flexibility and performing, right? You perform for the audience.

Leah Roseman (00:00:38):

Hi, you're listening to Conversations with Musicians with Leah Roseman. This podcast strives to inspire you through the personal stories of a diversity of musicians with in-depth conversations and great music that reveals the depth and breadth to a life and music. Meg Okura is an award-winning jazz composer and brilliant Grammy nominated violinist and the leader and founder of the Pan Asian Chamber Jazz Ensemble. This episode features several excerpts from Meg's wonderful recent duo album "Lingering" with the Grammy Award-winning jazz pianist and composer Kevin Hays. This was a wide ranging conversation, including Meg's musical tribute to Ryuichi Sakamoto, her experiences playing for Cirque du Soleil, some of the challenges she's faced, and about her search for a new spiritual community. She shared with me her thoughts on mentorship and the power of music to create real understanding and connection. Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listened to the podcast, and I've also linked the transcript to my website, leahroseman.com. The podcast theme music was commissioned from composer Nick Kold, and you can use the timestamps to navigate the episode. Before we jump into our conversation, I wanted to remind you that this weekly podcast is in season four, and that I send out an email newsletter where you can get exclusive access to information about upcoming guests. Have a look at the description of this episode where you'll find all the links, including the merch store and also the support link to buy this independent podcaster a coffee. Now to Meg Okura.

(00:02:11):

Hi Meg, thanks so much for joining me here today.

Meg Okura (00:02:14):

Hi, Leah. Thank you so much for having me.

Leah Roseman (00:02:19):

It's been wonderful listening to your new album Lingering, and we'll be focusing on that, but hopefully some other of your projects. It might be interesting to start with that it's quite different in that it's a duo, a lot of what you've done with the Pan Asian ensemble, bigger sound. Do you want to speak to your relationship with Kevin Hays and how that got going?

Meg Okura (00:02:42):

Sure. So I met Kevin Hays 10 years ago on a gig actually. We met on the bus and he recognized my husband on the way to a gig that we all happened to be on, and my husband recognized he noticed the chemistry immediately between Kevin Hays and I. And so we invited him over to our - my husband's name, Sam Newsome. He's a great soprano saxophonist. And so we jammed that night after the gig was over, and then Kevin Hays says, Meg, I think we should record on the album tomorrow. And then it took us 10 years to get it out, but he's very, very busy with his own different projects, even though he has done a lot of different duo projects, he's actually an expert at that as well. For me, as you mentioned, I've been really busy with the Pan Asian Chamber, Jazz Ensemble, and some big band writing, which takes up a lot of time out of your life, so it kind of kept it back burner.

(00:03:53):

But we occasionally get together and had a handful of performance, public performances, and then when the pandemic hit, I thought, oh, this would be a good opportunity for me to do something with the do projects since all of my Pan Asian Chamber Jazz Ensemble concerts and recordings have been canceled. So I wrote a suite specifically for Kevin and I, and it's on the album called Seven Short Pieces. And then we got together, went to his studio upstate, and we made a quick demo, and then we went into a studio at a separate occasion and hit the record button for four hours. So that's how, yeah, we made that the album.

Leah Roseman (00:04:48):

Is that kind of a New York moment to meet on a bus?

Meg Okura (00:04:51):

I think so. Sometimes going from the West side East side could be very difficult. Oh, I forgot to mention at the time Kevin Hays happened to be living right across the street from us in Harlem. So that was a big, I guess, key point that we were able to get together and play and just invite casually, okay, come over and we'll play.

Leah Roseman (00:05:22):

Well, it's an absolutely beautiful album. I love this album so much, but I wanted to get people interested in a lot of it, so I thought that we could include some clips of some of the longer tracks, but a nice place to start might be Again and Again.

Meg Okura (00:05:37):

So again and again is a track, is a composition that I wanted to feature fiddle feel like something that's American. And it's because of Kevin Hays, because he travels, he tours with James Taylor, and he recorded I think his next album in Nashville. So even though I don't come from that tradition, I wanted to include that kind of, for him to have that sort of America and fiddle and a legend sound mixed with some blues. So that was a composition that I intentionally created for us, and I also wanted to kind of showcase the open strings of the violin, which is not common in jazz.

Leah Roseman (00:06:35):

So I guess it struck me it was different than a lot of the compositions on the album. You are about to hear Again and Again from Lingering, the link to the album is in the show notes.(music)

(00:06:47):

I grew up in the Jewish Reform tradition, and you're a Reform Jew, and so this Suite has a lot of references to, you have Hebrew titles, so Maim Korim is another one of your compositions.

Meg Okura (00:10:31):

Yes. So I have to give credit to my daughter who just got Bat Mitzvahed in January. When she was little, we were on a lake, we were on a gig with somebody else, and the whole family was there to hang out and she just sang, "Is the Water Cold?" And she was literally a baby, but she sang that, and I was like, wow, that's very musical. So I used that little phrase and then used, I could say I stole the technique from Paganini, and then made that into a theme, and the texture kind of reminded me of the sort of moving water.

Leah Roseman (00:11:18):

You're about to hear Maim Korim from Mega Okura's composition, Seven Short Pieces.(music)

(00:11:23):

I am curious about, we will jump back into this album, but in terms of your classical training, I have a few questions about it. So you came from Japan to study at Julliard, and you were with Louis Kaplan and Masao Kawasaki.

Meg Okura (00:15:23):

Yes, correct.

Leah Roseman (00:15:24):

I understand when you were taking a composition or theory course, you had to write a fugue as an assignment, and that was kind of one of the first times you realized that you had a talent for this.

Meg Okura (00:15:34):

Well, I always liked to compose. I was born into the first generation Protestant household, so my parents, my mom really felt that they needed to have good organists for the church because they didn't. So as soon as she discovered my perfect pitch, she thought, okay, this is great. She's going to play for the church. So I started kind of improvising on the organ and piano at by age six, and I was always accompanist. So that's kind of how I started improvising on the instrument. And then I think when I was four or five years old, I told my mother that I wanted to become a composer, and she said, I girls cannot become composers. So as a good daughter of Protestants, we never question. We are not allowed to question. And so I just took it as a gospel and believed it, and I never asked anything about me becoming a composer ever again. And so it wasn't until I became an adult myself and made my own decisions, I was kind of focused on what I was told to do, which was to become, pursue the dream of my mother's, which is to become a concert violinist and pursue that very narrow path.

Leah Roseman (00:17:11):

You'll get into Julliard, but you were concert master and soloist of the Pan-Asian Youth Orchestra when you were teenager?

Meg Okura (00:17:17):

Asian Youth Orchestra? Yes, yes. Just right before I came to the United States, yes, yes. For two years, yes. I got to play Concertos and Concert master, which was a very difficult job. It was, even though it is called youth because they had professionals up until 30 years of age, and I had to lead, and I didn't speak English very well. So the first year it was a struggle, and so the following year I spent about five hours a day teaching myself English. Then after that summer, I came to the United States, so it was a much easier transition. By that time, I put my first step foot on the American soil. I was able to speak English, but the Asian Youth Orchestra was a life-changing opportunity for me to meet and travel and make music with other professionals, young students, from all over nine different Asian countries. And I had to be the leader, which, oh my gosh, it was not easy. I mean, also in terms of politics and history too, coming from Japan, not really knowing the kind of atrocities that we Japanese caused during the World War II and being informed by my colleagues and be challenged, but that was such a great experience for me because it really shifted. It just made me question what I had believed or known. And so that was a totally, completely life-changing opportunity experience.

Leah Roseman (00:19:09):

Very interesting. Does that orchestra still exist?

Meg Okura (00:19:11):

Yes, it does. The founder passed away a few years ago, but his partner is still running it. So I heard it at one point, it was the largest nonprofit organization in Asia, or if not in the world. It was a huge operation, I mean international operation. Wow,

Leah Roseman (00:19:33):

Wow, very interesting.

Meg Okura (00:19:34):

Yeah, it was very interesting. I mean, we got to stay at four star hotels, and I got to meet the King of Malaysia and got invited to all these amazing places as a teenager. That was just incredible. Yes.

Leah Roseman (00:19:56):

So I wanted to include some more short clips from Lingering to point people back to that album, which we'd started with. So this one, will you Hear My Voice was actually written by Rachel Blustein?

Meg Okura (00:20:11):

Oh, okay. So, okay, so the lyrics. Yeah, she was an immigrant. I mean, Hebrew was her second language, in the days - So Ha Tishma Koli is the Hebrew title of the words, the poem, and a few different pop groups have covered it. But the one I knew was very, I felt that it deserved more intimate sounding melody, so I put the melody to the lyric, but of course, it's a duo version. So I have yet to have a vocal song version of the melody yet, but that's the melody. So Will You Hear My Voice? Could be a song, I mean already has lyrics, but it's an instrumental duo version of it.

Leah Roseman (00:21:14):

So you were inspired by her song, but you wrote your own melody,

Meg Okura (00:21:18):

Correct. Yes. Things that we Reform Judaism we do all the time. Right, everything is that you put your own melody to new stuff, like different prayers and existing lyrics, words of prayers, so.

Leah Roseman (00:21:37):

This is an excerpt from Will You Hear My Voice from the album Lingering with pianist, Kevin Hays (music).

(00:23:05):

And then what was your experience like at Juilliard overall?

Meg Okura (00:23:09):

Overall, I don't know if I could say that I took full advantage of it, but overall, it's very positive. I enjoyed being surrounded by such, I guess, hardworking, diligent colleagues, smart ,just, and also it made me realize that I was not, I guess, cut out to be somebody who only played that white composers works under the dictatorship of, just spending a lot of time doing that. I couldn't really envision that because there are others who were so good at it. So I just really admired those who were genuinely passionate about classical violin playing. And I realized, well, maybe was really pursuing the dream of my mothers. I really didn't feel that it was really my passion. It had never really been my passion. And at the same time, I've been told by different professors that I should be a composer. Why are you a violin major? So that was, I guess, coming to America and living in New York and discovering other kinds of music and meeting a lot of, well-known jazz musicians. So that's what I did living in New York. I went out and checked out music that was happening in the 1990s in the Village, and so it was the most incredible time of my life. So I enjoyed being in school, but I also enjoyed living in New York in the 1990s. It was such an exciting time for jazz, I think.

Leah Roseman (00:25:31):

Do you remember any particular concerts you heard at that time?

Meg Okura (00:25:35):

Well, my first concert, first jazz concert I've ever been to was Brian Blade Fellowship at The Blue Note, and I was invited by one of the musicians, and I sat next to Kenny Garrett and at this sort of VIP table. And I mean, it was so incredible. I mean, the music I felt I could really relate to unlike, so this is the starting point of my jazz entry, was not from a traditional swing music. I came right at the sort of height of the very contemporary mainstream jazz in the 1990s, and that's kind of Brian Blade Fellowship is epitome of that. And then I had to go backwards and checking out different music, and I soon got invited to play a lot of downtown on the downtown scene with John Zorn's World Static Label. And as soon as I started improvising, I was invited into a lot of Jewish world. So because that I could use my years and getting into avant-garde jazz is very close to classical sound. So that's kind of how I started. And then I also got to play sub for Vince Giordano's Nighthawks Band. So I was playing music from 1920s, and I was also working in the downtown jazz world, which is so to spearheaded by John Zorn and all these amazing musicians on the East Side, East Village.

Leah Roseman (00:27:41):

So you did the BMI Jazz Composers workshop early on with Jim McNeely and Mike Holober, is that right?

Meg Okura (00:27:50):

Yes.

Leah Roseman (00:27:51):

Yeah. So at that point, had you already been writing quite a bit in jazz language, or was that more of your introduction to that?

Meg Okura (00:27:58):

So jazz, definitely in a sense, but I had never written big band pieces because that's a very specific, and it requires a lot of skills and studies. So most people who get accepted into BMI are composition people who have jazz composition degrees coming from some of the most elite conservatories. So I was very lucky that that year they decided to take two people who had never written big band charts, Helen Sung and I, and then they were so kind because they took us based on our ability to play our instruments and as players, and they thought maybe they're going to change their policies and so that we can be accepted into the workshop to see what we can do, because they thought it would be beneficial for them to have active performers in the group. So I got very lucky to be accepted, even though I had never actually studied jazz or composition in elite, or at all. It's not even any schools. So.

Leah Roseman (00:29:30):

So in terms of the Pan-Asian Chamber Jazz Ensemble, it might be interesting for people to hear that in terms of why you started that was not necessarily the best reason.

Meg Okura (00:29:47):

Right? Yeah. So the reason why, well, I needed, John Zorn actually said, you need to play your own music. And then I really agreed, because by then I felt like I was exposing myself to a lot of different music for me to learn to absorb. But when it came time for me to form my own group, he said, just call up the people you know and then start playing. So that's exactly what I did. And in terms of the name of the group, I could have called it Meg Okura Quintet or something like that. But then I didn't want to be tied to numbers of musicians. And so I picked Ensemble and that Pan Asian is the part that I felt like I didn't want to just white music that sounded Asian, but because of my face I could call, I was actually very much influenced by her classical ensembles, like Tokyo String Quartet can play Brahms or Mozart, any Western music.

(00:31:08):

So I said, okay, it's my group, so I can call it Pan Asian. And also Asian includes from Japan to all the way to maybe Israel Middle East. It is still within the Asian continent. And I was very much also influenced by, or my experience with the Asian Youth Orchestra was always sort of my inspiration, like what I've witnessed, the experience that the scenery, and it felt very exotic to me when I was traveling Asia and inspiring. So I had that in mind. And also you earlier, my exploration into jazz world, I just wanted to be the next Regina Carter. But my husband said, no, no, no, you don't do that, especially in jazz, you read have to cultivate your own music, and you have to have your own voice. So instead of trying to be someone who I wanted to be or I was trying to be, or I wish I was put, what I used to think was negative for fun.

(00:32:28):

So Asian, I didn't feel like, well, being Asian didn't really help in the jazz world at all, but I'll put that forefront. And the chamber part is like, okay, I'm sorry, I played the violin, the wrong instrument for jazz, but I put that, okay, this is who I am. Okay, I'm going to just tell everybody. And so that's why Pan Asian Jazz Ensemble. And I remember when I first started, after I graduated, I remember being referred to as Asian violinist or Asian chick violinist. And then I said to them, well, but I don't play the Asian violin. I play the regular Western violin like everybody else. But then I realized, okay, maybe I should play the Asian violin. So I went to Brooklyn and purchased my Chinese violin an erhu, and that's kind of how I started. I wanted to kind of use feedback. I was also really very much interested in, and I did really well in the electronica world, meaning that using sound effects and things like that.

(00:33:39):

I had so much fun. I even had did a few gigs with Jason Lindner, who is just superstar of in jazz playing electronic sound, and also just amazing jazz musician, amazing musician, just overall. So I've even done performances like that with Jason Lindner. I was having so much fun, but I felt that as soon as I called myself Pan Asian Chamber Jazz Ensemble, the reaction was immediate. People reacted positively, and people just, organization just found me and then booked my group, which is amazing. It doesn't really happen like that today, but back then it was just a little bit different. So people found me, found my group, and I was given opportunities, and I felt that I could use this group as a platform for my expression.

Leah Roseman (00:34:52):

So I listened to a couple of your recordings, really beautiful. Ima, Ima

Meg Okura (00:34:57):

Thank you

Leah Roseman (00:34:59):

Very deep and broad and lots of stuff in there. I thought if you wanted to direct people to that album, maybe we could talk about your track Tomiya?

Meg Okura (00:35:08):

Oh, okay. I have not heard it in a very long time.

Leah Roseman (00:35:14):

It's fantastic, and I know it's-

Meg Okura (00:35:16):

Thank you!

Leah Roseman (00:35:16):

It's personal too, so.

Meg Okura (00:35:18):

It's personal. So it has this Japanese scale using this Japanese pentatonic scale that's very unique because pentatonic scales like ubiquitous. It's everywhere on earth, but this scale is particularly Japanese. The reason why I say that is because to me, it's not special because I grew up in Japan, but do you know Min Xiao-Fen? No. Oh, she's a Pipa player, world renowned Pipa player. When I play the Japanese scale on the erhu, the Chinese violion, she's like, oh, that's Japanese. So anybody who's not Japanese, it's so different, but to me it's not. And then also my husband, he has written pieces using that mode because he thought it was just so radical, so different when he was walking in Tokyo, and they use that scale with the signal for blind people to traffic lights. They use that scale, a song, a melody. So anyway, so I realized that that's actually very special, even though I didn't think it was special.

(00:36:35):

So I'm using that and incorporating that. And then Tomiya is, my father's name is Tomiya, and I actually decided, this was actually part of my fundraiser campaign. I said, I will give naming right to the person who has contributed the most. And it happened to be my father. He contributed all of my life that there would be no comparison to anybody else. I mean, to become a classical violinist, you really need so much support from your parents. I mean, financially, probably mostly from the dad, and then time management and just for everything else, you just kind of need that mom to really push you.

(00:37:33):

I don't think there's any other way. I don't think anyone could become a classical violinist with on their own own meaning, especially just the kind of time that you need to spend to practice. And I would be just so surprised if a child, a 4-year-old wanted to say and practice something that's physically very uncomfortable, and the sound that you can produce when you're a beginner, it's not a pleasant experience, unlike some other instruments, a little easier as beginners when it comes to sound. You can press buttons on the keyboard and you don't get horrible sound, but the violin, it's a huge process.

Leah Roseman (00:38:35):

Okay, so you feel like you owe a lot to your dad, but he actually supported this album.

Meg Okura (00:38:40):

Yes, yes,

Leah Roseman (00:38:41):

Yes, yes. And you're referencing Taiko drums.

Meg Okura (00:38:46):

And also the concept of my Pan Asian Chamber Jazz Ensemble is to create music, that, music without an accent, meaning that I felt like when others try to sort of imitate or create Asian sound, a lot of times I can't approve it. It just sounds like an accent to me. And I hated that. And the way I look at it is that I was shocked when I first, I think I was watching a PBS program and they were interviewing a Japanese doctor, a medical doctor from Kyoto University, which is the, I guess most prominent, one of the most important medical schools in the world. I think he might have been a Noble Laureate. And when they dubbed him, they didn't put a subtitle, they dubbed him.

(00:39:54):

PBS put the silly accent on his English, and it was so cringey, and it just shocked me. It just kind of depressed me. So I felt the need to present what could be attributed to Asian music, Asian asianness, but I wanted to present it without an accent. I didn't want to leave it up to others to do this. I felt like in a way, it's like my mission to present what could be Asian, but in the best possible light, most flattering, I guess, light I should say. I really wanted to do that, and I hope I'm successful at it.

Leah Roseman (00:40:38):

You're about to hear an excerpt from Tomiya on the Pan Asian Chamber Jazz Ensembles album, Ima Ima. The link to all the music featured in this episode is to be found in the show notes.(music)

(00:40:50):

So Meg, I'm assuming that one of your more popular albums is the music of Ryuichi Sakamoto,

Meg Okura (00:42:15):

I guess. Yes, I think so. I mean, I hope so. Yes. Yes, I could say that safely say that Ryuichi Sakamoto is somebody I listened to as a child growing up, even though my parents, I don't think they really approved of it, but it was my older brother who bought every new release from Yellow Magic Orchestra on that release day. He would line up in front of the record store and he would get that. And then there are three composers in Yellow Magic Orchestra, but I always loved Ryuichi Sakamoto the most, and I could recognize it. And I also, because I don't, I didn't grow up listening to any jazz at all. I didn't know what it was that I loved so much. And what it was was the harmony he Ryuichi Sakamoto was very much influenced by Boss Nova and Brazilian music. So the harmony definitely is rich jazz harmony. So I really, really thought it was very special. And I really love the kind of music that makes me feel like I'm on a swing set or rollercoaster that the butterflies you feel in your gut, your stomach, and this harmony, Ryuichi Sakamoto's harmony, which is kind of rooted influenced by Brazilian music, really did that to me. So it definitely influenced my writing kind of subconsciously. I really listened to it growing up and something that wasn't part of my studies. So that was kind of helpful.

(00:44:12):

And I also realized that in America, every time I mentioned, oh, among jazz musicians mentioned Ryuichi Sakamoto, nobody knew who he was. So I was kind of offended that they didn't, and I asked actually, different players. I asked Helen Sung and to join me on this album to make it almost presented as jazz standard meaning that I wanted her to interpret on the piano. And she's arguably one of the best jazz pianists ever, certainly in our generation. So I wanted someone like that to partner with me to recreate the world of Sakamoto and then make it sort of our own. And I did the arrangements, but of course in jazz, each player gets to improvise and they have to sort of interpret it. So I really tried to make it as American jazz as possible in some ways for this one.

Leah Roseman (00:45:26):

So he since died, but at the time you made this album, he was still alive.

Meg Okura (00:45:30):

Correct.

Leah Roseman (00:45:31):

Did you communicate with him about it?

Meg Okura (00:45:33):

I had to because he's more famous than God in Japan. So I had to go through the proper channel, and I got the blessing. We were in touch, his people, my people from Japan, and I had to go through a proper channel. It's not easy. Even when we performed at Winter Jazz Fest this past January, it just required a lot of care and thoughtfulness and permission. I couldn't just, so yeah, so we were in touch and he was certainly aware of the project, and I'm just so grateful that he gave me an okay, he trusted me enough to recreate his music that he didn't think I was going to ruin his music.

Leah Roseman (00:46:40):

So that album features Randy Brecker?

Meg Okura (00:46:43):

No, Randy Brecker will be featured in my upcoming album.

Leah Roseman (00:46:47):

Oh, that's what I'd read!

Meg Okura (00:46:48):

The Pan Asian Jazz Ensemble.

Leah Roseman (00:46:50):

That's what I'd read. Okay.

Meg Okura (00:46:50):

That's the large ensemble. Yes. It's been recorded over a year ago almost. Yeah.

Leah Roseman (00:46:57):

But he's the brother of Michael Brecker who was one of your mentors.

Meg Okura (00:47:02):

Correct. Yes. I had the opportunity to tour with Michael Brecker Quindectet, and that was also one of those experiences that it was really incredible. You get to play two sets, two concerts per night, and you get to share the stage. And I had a solo in front of Gil Goldstein on the back end, Michael Becker, and I had to say what I want to say on stage in front of those very critical audience members and very supportive, Michael Brecker and amazing other musicians. So that was so incredible. I'm so sorry that he had to pass. It's been very, very sad, but I'm grateful to have had the opportunity kind of last minute. I was already a very much a fan of Brecker Brothers and that sound in the 1990s. I listened to those albums almost daily. So yeah, I got to perform and work with my hero, and now Randy Brecker played, my interpretation of African Skies, and maybe something else too on the upcoming album, but it should come out soon enough. But I don't have the date yet, but I'm really, really excited about it. I've used some of the tracks as work samples, and I've gotten many, many honors from it.

Leah Roseman (00:48:54):

Okay. And do you have a prize winning new work? Silent Screams and Anthem for the Unheard, which you just premiered, right?

Meg Okura (00:49:02):

Yes. It actually was a commission. So I received the Honor, the prize from the International Society of Jazz Arrangers and Composers ISJAC Fundamental Freedom Commission Prize. So I wrote it for the prize and I received the prize, and I got to do the world premier at the symposium in Nashville,

Leah Roseman (00:49:33):

And it's for violin and jazz orchestra. So you were playing,

Meg Okura (00:49:37):

Yes, eight. So it's almost like a concerto, but it also features the tenor saxophone from the orchestras. So I was able to work with Jeff Goldman, who was a saxophonist for, probably most known for Dave Matthews Band, and he's a world renowned saxophone, and a wind player, he also does doubles. So he's a jazz musician, but also he does a lot of other work.

Leah Roseman (00:50:10):

Yeah, I was curious, you could still keep a bit of a foot in the classical world in terms of your composition. Have you written any sort of crossover pieces?

Meg Okura (00:50:18):

Yes. So during the pandemic, the beginning of the pandemic, I was commissioned by wonderful clarinetist, Tasha Warren from Michigan State University. So Michigan State University gave her the funding to commission me and a few other wonderful jazz composers, Paquito de Riviera and Pascal de Boeuf. So these are jazz composers to write for the classical group, with Tasha Warren and Dave Eggar. So those are the two sort of a duo. Plus we were able to add ourselves. So I decided to, well, actually they invited me. They really wanted me to be a part of the ensemble. So I wrote a trio for bass, clarinet slash clarinet, cello and violin, and it's title Phantasmagoria. And since then, I think it won several competitions in the classical world.

Leah Roseman (00:51:25):

I listened to it. It's really good.

Meg Okura (00:51:26):

Oh, thank you so much. And then that kind of helped me or invited me back into the classical world.

(00:51:38):

So we played Messian, and the other day I think we played Dvorak, which I hadn't done in a very, very long time, almost since Juilliard, I haven't really played classical chamber music, but now because of my composition, I'm getting back into it and I have a new appreciation for dead white composers. I mean, I love them so much. I love their work there, inspired me so much. And so it's a lot of fun for me to perform in other people's work. And I really look forward to writing more classical compositions because there's in some ways more needs for it. There's for new music, Tasha felt that there aren't just enough music for chamber music for her and her colleagues to play, especially for the bass clarinet. And so I feel that I could contribute more to the contemporary classical world, whereas in jazz, everybody's a composer, everybody composers.

(00:52:55):

So in order to be successful as a composer, you kind of write for big bands, which is very similar to classical in a way, because we write a lot of written materials and have smaller sections of solo improvisation. But then you also write the background. So anyway, so writing for large jazz ensembles kind of made me, I guess, aware of writing for classical chamber music and classical music. And I've love to maybe someday write for symphonic orchestra and symphonic jazz as well. Then that will kind of tie nicely with my whole entire life. I'm 50 years old and I kind of need to make sense of what I've done in the past and where I would like to go to. So now, I definitely, because I was so busy trying to become a jazz musician, because it's so difficult to be able to play, let's say, chord changes to get to become. It is one thing to be an improviser, but to be able to actually play chord changes in the matter that those jazz musicians do, it takes a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of patience. And so it took a long time for me to get to where I am today. So now I feel that I could start embracing writing for other people more. I think.

Leah Roseman (00:54:37):

Yeah, I knew about Phantasmagoria and first of all, would it be okay if we included a clip of that?

Meg Okura (00:54:42):

Oh, of course. Yes, yes, absolutely, please.

Leah Roseman (00:54:45):

And because of that piece, I was wondering actually if you'd written for orchestra, since that's what I do and chamber music. So I'm glad to hear you're going to be doing more. That's great.

Meg Okura (00:54:54):

I would love to. Yes. I'm looking for opportunities, more opportunities. I mean, I right now have three commissions, but I should be able to work fast by now. So anyways, but maybe after that or simultaneously, I would love to start doing more classical work. I think among three commissions, one is completely jazz, the other one is chamber. It's like chamber orchestra, but in the jazz context. And then the other one is chamber music, classical. So yeah, I am doing more classical and I would love to do, I am definitely eager to work with classical ensembles.

Leah Roseman (00:55:43):

This is an excerpt from Meg's composition Phantasmagoria performed by Tasha Warren and Dave Eggar with Meg Okura. You can buy the sheet music from Meg's website linked in the description, and the full track is linked in the show notes as well.(music)

(00:55:58):

Maybe we could talk a little bit about parenting and music education, because my partner is also a musician and we brought up kids or adults now, but I am often curious to hear people's take on it. How are you guys going about that with your daughter?

Meg Okura (00:57:41):

So this was my strategy. So when we first decided to have a start a family, I was never going to be ready anyways. And then the clock was sticking already, so I was going to just do it. We were going to just have a baby no matter what. But then I had this reservation, how do we want to raise our child? And I could not imagine not giving her the best opportunities and best education possible and raising her, or actually could have been a boy or a girl, and in Harlem. And it was just very challenging. It felt challenging. I did so much, a lot of research and read a lot of statistics. And so by the time we found out that we were having a girl, we were starting to feel that maybe we can do something radical and that we wanted to raise her in maybe a foreign exchange, foreign culture, and then have another language and things like that. Because that's what my husband and I both really, I'm in a foreign land in a way. And he felt that he was, well, as a jazz musician, he traveled all over the world and he's seen a hut in Africa to fanciest hotels in Europe and Asia. So anyway, so we, we didn't want to want her to just have one thing as her identity.

(00:59:40):

And at the time, I felt that maybe we had this opportunity, we can maybe perhaps raise our Black daughter Jewish. And so we made this decision that I study and then go through the process of conversion. And then my daughter and I converted together so she can be raised in this culture that we weren't even familiar with. But in New York, you have this incredible opportunity to choose. We had the choice, so we decided that, so my daughter converted when she was two years old and went to JCC nursery school. And so it's been quite a journey. And so that was my strategy because I felt like I wasn't going to be enough. And coming here alone, I had no blood relatives in America. And I wanted her to grow up in a community and also in a culture that education was very important and that it was required.

(01:01:00):

And I wanted our daughter also because she was a girl, the reason why she had to be a girl for us to do this was because I wasn't really sure about making the permanent decision on her. If it was a boy, we would have to have circumcision. I wasn't really sure. I didn't want to make that decision, permanent decision for him. So because it was a girl, we knew that she could change her mind at 13, whether she wanted to still be Jewish or not. And it's all about questioning. She could question, and it was up to her regardless. And she wouldn't have that. We wouldn't have that burden. So we decided to do that.

(01:01:52):

She knew she went to Hebrew school and JCC, and then also I made sure that she got into some of the top schools so that I can be a musician. I can kind of almost slack. The school was going to really take care of her, meaning that their education is so good. She goes to Spence school, and it's just an incredible, incredible education there. And I admire all the mothers and fathers, the parents. And so even though I'm not the most amazing mother in the world, she's in good hands. So that was my strategy. So I can compose and go on the road. And she's growing up really, she's doing really, really well. She's thriving, and I kind of envy her life. So that was my strategy. I dunno if it's called cheating, but I kind of cheated. So

Leah Roseman (01:03:04):

It's a residential school?

Meg Okura (01:03:07):

No, no, no, no, no. But her environment is just incredible. And the school teachers, there're just really, really amazing. So it's one of the top, I guess, schools in the world. But in order for her to get in, I did tiger Mom for about a year. I did work very, very hard. I gave up everything. I gave up all my gigs composition for one year. We went to a lot of interviews. I did a lot of research, and she got into many of the most elite schools so that we can just keep on living our musician life after that. And it's working out really well. So I'm really grateful.

Leah Roseman (01:03:53):

What does that kind of coaching involve? Just early literacy or

Meg Okura (01:03:58):

No, I actually downloaded the criteria that they had. The school was supposed to, the nursery school was supposed to evaluate, so it's more like I knew the report, you have to, they put the report together to send it to the school. So I was able to download the information, the form that they were supposed to fill out. Oh, okay. So they're going to evaluate. So being able to stand in line, things like that. And also drawing was an important part is I taught her how to draw. So then that was one of the schools, they called me right away after she had her audition, whatever, I dunno what they call it, play dates. They said she's only four years old, but her drawing abilities of 8 years old, this is crazy. So I definitely did help her guide her. Nothing crazy, but I just let her try things that she'll be looked at.

(01:05:15):

And then musically, she got into special music school, and I had the information from somebody else that you play two notes, and then they ask you to ask the child to sing the lower voice. Then, so I tested her, and then the first time she could only sing the top one, and I told her that this is the lower note. And then after that, she was able to do it. So anyway, so that kind of little bit of training, I didn't go crazy on it, but I just helped her a little bit, guided her a little bit. So when she's asked to do something, she knows what she's being asked to do.

(01:06:02):

But those are the kind of things I did in order for her to, but I have to give her the credit too. She always said, well, I'm the one who got in. I'm the one who did all the play dates. And she's working also very hard because she's in seventh grade. But I'm kind of letting her do her own work. We don't have any tutors or crazy scheduling. I mean, she is a self, I guess she is. So we don't have to do anything. She just gets up early in the morning, she gets ready, get really prettied up every morning. She gets up by 5:30 and then gets ready. And then sometimes she does her homework. I mean, they work very hard. Those kids work very, very hard. And then she leaves home without saying goodbye. So I just have to get up from my bed and one downstairs and say goodbye.

(01:07:11):

Yes. So yeah, I'm so happy that she's in seventh grade. She doesn't really need me so much anymore.

Leah Roseman (01:07:18):

So no violin lessons for hers?

Meg Okura (01:07:20):

We tried. We tried. I mean, so this is what happened. We bought her a little violin and then we wanted her to try, and then she was making terrible sounds. And then, so I was showing her how to play with my violin, and she says, mommy, my violin broke it. Give me yours. But she never really took it serious. So she never really learned. But she took piano lessons with, and it was terrible because I used to judge parents when I was a teacher, and I was giving lessons like good parents, bad parents, and then I never dreamed that I was going to be that bad parent. I was apologizing to the teacher every week was just so difficult, so cringey, I remember I was there, she was in kindergarten, and then she told her piano teacher that there is no wrong note. Piano is an art.

(01:08:27):

Anyway, she really wasn't. So, no, yeah, short story. It's not like we didn't try. We gave her the opportunity. She didn't take up on it.

(01:08:42):

But she's very musical and talented, but she doesn't like to take traditional lessons. She wants to learn everything from YouTube. So she slows down the tempo on YouTube and plays whatever the instrument she wants to play, and then goes 75%, a hundred percent, and 125%. So until she can perfect it. So I don't know. I feel like music education will probably change a lot in the next 10, 20 years. It will not look like the way we learned it, and I have to be okay with that. I, I definitely, I mean, I have feelings about it, but maybe with technology and with the environment and the access to other things that kids are competing with other more interesting things and the options that they have sitting in a practice room for 10 hours a day focus may be very, very difficult today, even though they have more access to more information, which I envy. They can more easily access to most incredible technology and a lot of information. But the reason why not many people are quite taking advantage of that and is because I think there are just so many other things that are more interesting to them. So what do you think, tell me, what do you think the education and lesson, things like that today?

Leah Roseman (01:10:28):

Well, just in terms of access to music, I often talk about this with people. So much is available, but when we were growing up, there was, I'm a little bit older than you, but there was more limited access. So you had your favorite albums you'd listen to over and over again. Yes,

Meg Okura (01:10:46):

Over and over, yes, exactly.

Leah Roseman (01:10:48):

But you had more focus because there wasn't all this choice. So now there's a wealth of choice. So people still go down the rabbit holes, which is great. But I think there's so many distractions. I kind of feel sorry for the younger generation in some ways because of that.

Meg Okura (01:11:05):

Yes, exactly. Yes. That's how I feel. And we probably wouldn't have been who we are today had we been in that environment. Maybe I couldn't have been able to accomplish as much as a string player. It just takes a lot of patience.

Leah Roseman (01:11:34):

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's hard to know, right?

(01:11:36):

And also as part of your Suite on this album, there was Shamaim?

Meg Okura (01:11:42):

Yes, yes, yes. So Shamaim means skies or heaven. And I am quoting a very famous prayer. So not in the sense that really literal prayer, but kind of in the back of my head, sort of just appreciation for nature. And when I think of the word shamaim, the sky, but the word comes from two words like inesh and maim, like water and sun. And I just think of this sky with clouds and sun and its brightness. And actually, Kevin Hays and I had a tour. We went to Hawaii, and Hawaii was just all about that. I felt like, wow, this, I just love the skies. And we don't see that. You know what, in New York, all of our skies are framed. It's like squares as a frame. So when I see the open skies, it's like, oh my gosh. It just really moves me. And in a way, and it just makes me think of the world more spiritual, celestial or ethereal world that I don't often think about. So yes, sky definitely reminds me of that.

Leah Roseman (01:13:20):

This is an excerpt from Shamaim from Seven Short Pieces with Kevin Hays on the album Lingering. (music)

(01:15:48):

Hi. Just a short break from the episode, which I hope you're enjoying so far. I wanted to let you know that I have a new way you can support this independent podcast through a beautiful collection of merch with a very cool, unique, and expressive design from artist Steffi Kelly. You'll find that link in the description of the episode. If you want to check out over a hundred episodes you may have missed in addition to your podcast player or YouTube, I have an extensive website, leahroseman.com with show notes, transcripts, the complete catalog of episodes, and you can sign up there for my weekly newsletter to get access to sneak peeks of upcoming guests. Please do share your favorite episodes with your friends, follow me on social media and share my posts. And if you can spare a few dollars to help support the series, that would be amazing. You'll find that link in the show notes along with the merch store. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. Now, back to the episode.

(01:16:43):

I was curious about your ideas about intuitive versus analytical as a composer and as an improviser. And as your knowledge has grown of a very complicated jazz harmony, how does that work for you?

Meg Okura (01:17:00):

So I think to this day, I use my gut as sort of an indicator. It has to move me. It has to. So I have a hard time. I mean, I can start with a concept, but eventually I really rely upon my ears and how my music makes me feel. So sometimes even some of the music that I've written or some of the music I've heard, I've known, if I imagine those notes in my head alone, I could start crying the harmony that knows exactly I can hear it. I mean, I think one of the things I'm grateful for my mother is because I have perfect pitch so I can actually create music in my head, within my head without actually hearing things. And so that kind of music, if I can write music that is legitimately just by thinking about those notes, move me.

(01:18:19):

So yeah, I use that sort of as a parameter to judge my music. And not all music have to be moving. It could be invigorating or sad or angry, could be an emotion, but something that to me has to be genuine. I think it's because I'm not so academic. I did study jazz harmony to study, but I think as a person, I'm just really an emotional person. I like music functioning in a way that's not so much to satisfy that here, but more your soul and your heart. So also I think growing up in a church, being a church organist and doing so much playing in religious and worship service, I know what my function is and what the sound of the violin or the harmony you create can do to human soul. Often see, I see people crying all the time, and you can call it what mind control, but I know I could kind of touch and I wouldn't say I, maybe the instrument, the sound, the vibration and how I create an improvisational line, but that leaves this way.

(01:20:03):

And also sometimes it, I play in a way that's really genuine, and it's from my heart to the point that I want to cry myself. So I feel like that's my job to bring something that's very deep and soulful and real. I don't perform. I am a part of a team and I play music in a way that's helpful. So that's kind of how I approach it. So I learned that from my experience, and I use that in my, anytime I perform for anybody, I try to really access my heart, my gut, my soul, instead of using here. Because use here, when you practice, especially jazz, when you put all that knowledge, but when you are in front of others, I think it will be almost, it won't be fair if we were playing from here, from intellectual place and that only that because humans are coming to your space, to a place to hear you who you are and to experience something.

(01:21:25):

So if I'm not genuine and playing from my heart, and that's also, I guess I can attribute that to classical violin playing, because in jazz, so much of it is a lot of hard practicing and learning. But I know in classical, you perform notes that are written by somebody else, but you really put your soul into it on each note. So I think I find that helpful for me too, when I'm playing jazz, when I'm improvising, I definitely try to do that. And when I'm not able to do that, when I'm too nervous or when I'm worried about other people, that's to me not successful when I'm too intellectually trying to impress somebody else, which is really important. And I think it's really valuable. We need that as just musicians to be validated by our peers, but audience members, they don't know what we are doing. So I feel that it's extremely, extremely important to me to actually play my heart out. So that's kind of what I try to do. And I don't think I could have really thought of my improvisational performance that way without coming from classical, having had the experience playing recitals and concertos. I think that's very, very helpful.

Leah Roseman (01:23:06):

I did want to include a couple of clips, like Lingering the title track. Do you want to speak to that?

Meg Okura (01:23:13):

Sure. So this one was actually not written just for the duo, actually. I meant it to be jazz Waltz to be played with a quartet or something, or anybody can play. So this is one of few pieces that's a lead sheet, meaning that it has a melody and the chord changes, not designated so much piano part and violin parts. And it's sort of like a romantic, I guess, jazz waltz. And it's about wanting to linger, not wanting to let go of whatever. So that's what that melody is about, just wanting to stay a little bit longer and be in a space. And also, I'm kind of channeling the feelings that I used to have as a young woman, young person, have those feelings of romance, or there's a word in Japanese seshiun, I dunno, it means blue spring, I don't know, It's something about that kind of melancholic, romantic feeling that I miss. I guess something that I don't really have so much today. And if I forget as women, I think once you become a mother, you almost let go of that world completely and you become, I dunno, not irrelevant, but I still kind of crave those kind of feelings of romance. So that's what lingering is about. Don't go, let's stay here, kind of.

Leah Roseman (01:25:08):

Yeah. Well, becoming a parent, I think for men or women, I mean, it's like a lot of your focus goes to take care of this creature, and we're already split in all our different identities. So I think it's just another piece of it being taken up?

Meg Okura (01:25:23):

Yeah, so I guess I'm always, I have been afraid of not have having those feelings we used to have and through music, I think I use music to kind of recreate that within me instead of doing anything else. I feel like we are lucky that we can almost within ourselves, we can be actresses or actors, just kind of enjoy that feeling in that sort of the pure form instead of having to do something differently. It's kind of like my imagination, imaginary, I'm creating, in my head,

Leah Roseman (01:26:06):

This is an excerpt from the title track Lingering (music).

(01:26:08):

And I know you've played electric violin as well, but mostly you're choosing to play acoustic.

Meg Okura (01:28:08):

So I still do a lot of using that effect pedals. That could be, so for me, that could be also an expression. So I still do it a lot. And a tool for composition because I can play four notes chords, I can create chords with double, and then I use Octave pedal or two octave to go down and delays and reverbs and all these things are part of who I am as a violinist, but I'm start starting to scale down on it. But for certain bands that I play with, that's the sound that I require to contribute. And also a lot of times I use it because in certain situations I'm the guitar player and violinist and fiddler and an orchestra. I use pad sounds that's very rich. So I am functioning. But I guess as an artist, I'm definitely scaling back on it. And also because I get to now compose for a 17 piece orchestra plus me, so I can do so much with those instruments that, but I love both. I love playing electric violin with a lot of sounds. I really truly enjoy it. But also I appreciate the acoustic sound and writing for other instruments. So

Leah Roseman (01:29:54):

You played in the Scorchio Quartet with Martha Mooke for a while?

Meg Okura (01:29:57):

I have, yes. Yes. So basically, I think by the time I started Master's program at Julliard, I was just very much interested in anything that wasn't classical. So I just played with anybody and everybody. So I also played in the Sirius quartet, and I played with so many different groups, and at one point I had to create my own, but until then I was just in so many different groups and I had a lot of fun. Yeah,

Leah Roseman (01:30:37):

I mentioned that because she was featured on the podcast recently

Meg Okura (01:30:40):

Yes, yes,

Leah Roseman (01:30:40):

And you were on the David Bowie's album, Heathen with that quartet, and I believe he sponsored your green card application?

Meg Okura (01:30:50):

Yes, yes. He was one of the sponsors. And that was another motivation I really needed to, you can pick different paths. A lot of people, I mean some people I envy, they were so focused, they knew exactly what they wanted to do, and they only did that. And sometimes I feel like, wow, looking back, maybe I should have started my own path a little earlier, like waiting. But I spent good first 10 years after school just playing with other people, just playing with different groups so I can get my green card. That was very important to me. And also, I needed to absorb as much music as possible. I didn't grow up here and I grew up in a church setting, and I really was a good classical violinist, so I felt the need to expose myself to as many different genres of music as possible.

(01:31:56):

And New York, especially in the 1990s and early two thousands, there are just so many opportunities. There are a lot of recording sessions, and I was lucky enough to be invited to do so many different things with so many different artists in different genres. So just be able to improvise a little bit really gave me a lot of different opportunities. So I'm very grateful for that. And with Scorchio, I think, yeah, we definitely, there's a lot of improvisation and a lot of written, playing a lot music as well. And I think we plugged in, but not in the way that, I mean, we didn't really do much. I developed my electric violin sounds on my own to mostly, actually the biggest opportunity I had was playing with a band called Pharaoh's Daughter, a Jewish Middle Eastern World music band. And there I got to do a lot of fun stuff. And even though the scale and it's world music oriented, but that sound itself, we could use a lot of electronic sound. So I got to experiment using my pedals,

Leah Roseman (01:33:21):

I believe with that group. You went on a Latin American tour with some stories?

Meg Okura (01:33:28):

Yes, we have. So, yes. Yes, we definitely, I got the tour all over. I mean, we played all over America, and so we once went to South America. Yeah, Brazil and Columbia and it was crazy fun. And that is the only time I have been asked to play the violin at the airport security. Yeah. And it was crazy. I mean, I've been to South America before with my own group, but this was very special. Got to tour with Avishai Cohen and Jason Lindner was on the gig too. So yeah, we had some good memories.

Leah Roseman (01:34:21):

What happened when you played at the airport?

Meg Okura (01:34:23):

Oh no, the security, because see in those countries, Columbia, they were just, I guess the security is kind of strict. They were poking every cloth suitcase with big weapon things, and they needed to see everything. And then of course, sometimes I get asked to open my instrument and show it to them, but this time they're like, okay, it looks like an instrument, but can you actually play it? So I think they were just kind of playing with us. But yeah, I got to play for the security. Yeah.

Leah Roseman (01:35:10):

And Meg, you played with Cirque du Soleil for few shows?

Meg Okura (01:35:13):

Yes, three shows. Yes, I did. First one was Varekai and the second one was Wintuk, and the third one was Corteo. Yes. Yeah. So that was something that I guess that people recommended me for the Cirque du Soleil company when, because sometimes some bad things happen to players, so they need subs. So the first time I went, actually, I subbed for my hero. He unfortunately had a terrible car accident after that, so he's no longer performing. But Ludwig Gertland was the violinist, and he really inspired me as a jazz violinist. And he was in playing that show. And I went to, where was it, San Diego. And then learned the show within, I dunno, a few days I guess they had some written music. And then they put you in a full costume, head to toe costume, and then get in your mic and then you go on stage, go improvise, do this.

(01:36:32):

And then I would be improvising, of course, to the music, but watching the acrobatics and then try to create lines that matches the act. And then sometimes it's super short. Sometimes they give up something that doesn't go. And sometimes when something doesn't go well, they try again and again. So get longer and longer. It was a lot of fun. So that was my Cirque du Soleil experience. And I think I learned how to do good makeup because you had to learn a makeup. I mean, that makeup was insane. I had to be some kind of animal that doesn't exist on earth. So anyway, so that's another electric violin gig that I enjoyed doing earlier on my career.

Leah Roseman (01:37:28):

So what do you think you learned watching all those circus performers through those show?

Meg Okura (01:37:37):

I appreciated perfection, meaning that they would play thousands of shows and then every time they get together, I watch, each act has a coach, and then they watch the video and they scrutinize everything. I mean, after a thousand shows, can you just slack off? But they don't, and they're so serious. And so disciplined. Some couples have worked together and they have babies. And I saw literally babies this small being asked to train. They're training babies. And then also I saw jugglers practicing trumpet every day. It was a world I had never seen before. Wow. And also it's about perfection, but also about flexibility and performing. You perform for the audience and entertain, and you really have to be quick in your thinking and just adaptable because something happens to this act, this person, this person, oh, he just broke his ankle. Things happen.

(01:39:01):

And today this act is going to be longer. Today we cut this one. Oh. So it was very interesting. Also, when a violinist is absent or something, they don't just get another violinist because that's not what it's about. They would get the guitarist to cover this melody and this wind player to cover that melody and so, so is going to play this solo, that solo. That's how, so that's very, very different from growing up playing classical music up until I got my master's in violin performance still. So that was my entire education was completely in classical world. And being exposed to the world of entertainment and circus and stemming from street arts and stage performance, like Vegas, almost like that kind of entertainment world. Everything was new to me. And so though I couldn't stay, I just couldn't stay. I just really though it was fun at a time, but I couldn't sign a three year contract that they offered.

(01:40:21):

Instead, I did three months and I threatened my boyfriend at a time. I mean my husband today that if I don't get a ring now, within a week, I'm going to run off with a circus, and I sign a three year contract, and then I've somehow got a ring out of him right before the tour. So I came back to New York and yeah, I came back to New York and it was rather, I guess not underwhelming, but New York, what we pay, what give up for music or for good music to live in New York is incredible. I think. I always felt like, oh my gosh, I could have had all these amazing things. A swimming pool and my lifestyle with Cirque du Soleil was amazing. I got spoiled when I came back to Brooklyn to my apartment. It was a good apartment, but we still choose to pursue jazz or music in New York and giving up everything else, all the other possibilities.

(01:41:44):

And I'll be lying if I did not, hadn't questioned my decision a few times in my life for the last 30 years, sometimes I wonder what I would've been doing or what kind of lifestyle I would've had. But no, I'm very happy what I am at now. But it wasn't always easy because I had to become a beginner again as a jazz to be accepted, to feel accepted in the jazz world. I had to become, had been a concertmaster in many, many orchestras growing up. And then from there and playing solo to a complete, nobody complete beginner at the age like 23, 24, and just be total beginner, wasn't easy. And had I known how hard it was going to be for me to become a jazz musician, I don't think I could have, I would've tried a good thing. I had no idea. Then I had to.

(01:42:56):

And then I also, my plan was to study jazz, jazz harmony enough for me to become a very good composer, the best composer, best musician I can ever achieve. And that was my goal. But then I realized studying a little bit of jazz was completely meaningless in jazz. So I learned everything very slowly.

(01:43:19):

So another thing I really want to start thinking about giving back to, especially the classical world, something that I now finally have the room for me to, I mentor for Julliard School now, and one of the many, many mentors, but at my age, I feel like, wow, I wish I had a mentor. I didn't mentor, mentor, I had teachers, many great teachers, but I would like to start thinking about helping someone who is in the shoe that I used to be in so I can help navigate this sort of unknown world. And without wasting too much time, I think I went, it just took me a very, very, very long time. So

Leah Roseman (01:44:18):

Yeah, I knew about your mentoring through Julliard, and I was curious what form that takes.

Meg Okura (01:44:23):

Oh, so it could be so many different things. So over the years, so right now I have a guitarist and he's graduating, and basically I've invited him to our place and introducing him to my network of people, which is a treat to him, right? Because a student and he gets to meet some of the most accomplished musicians in the industry, even though he's a classical guitarist. And then we can talk about some personal things. And then I've had one student who, her biggest problem was that she has never had a difficult time in her life. Everything she has ever done, she has always been successful, and her parents are super supportive and she's grateful. She's so happy that she's so worried that her life has never been hard. So that was very interesting. And then I was starting a chamber music career, so needed guidance in a business side or another student. She was a dancer.

(01:45:44):

It was all about personal life, navigating through school system. And also the culture in the dance department was quite different. I think maybe music socially, maybe music is a little easier. I mean, of course it depends on the situation, but dancers seem to have, they're required to do different things compared to music students, music students. We never had to raise money for our concerts, for instance, just we would be asked to play for maybe a fundraiser or something. But dancer, they really create the whole show on their own. So the thing I did at Michigan State University is I worked with both jazz and classical department and so together. And so I feel like I'm in a unique position to be able to, because I know curiosity is there and help them, I guess. Not a shortcut. There's no shortcut, but not waste too much time trying to figure out, because I felt that I needed to do that. I spent a lot of time not exactly knowing how to approach learning jazz as a classically trained violinist.

Leah Roseman (01:47:08):

Yeah, I know that quite a few of the listeners of this podcast are fairly young, like teenagers and early twenties, which makes me very happy because one of my motivations for doing this is that because, yeah, I didn't have mentors and I grew up in this small box and didn't realize how wide the world of music can be.

Meg Okura (01:47:26):

And other people do other things to help, but using what we already know, what we have to give back, I think it's the most efficient way. And also music is, I think music is healing. I know it sounds so corny, right? Cheesy. But I feel that genuinely feel when we perform together, it's really connecting. We have this goal of creating harmony together. And I think it's really beautiful that this is what we truly, truly care about. That's the only thing we are actually interested in. And the world today, we live in such a divided world, which I didn't envision it was going to be like this growing up, but we actually do live in this seemingly very divided world. But I don't think we are truly, I guess if we put us musicians in the same room and created music, just the practice of jazz, for instance.

(01:48:38):

We let others shine during their solo and we completely support. And then there's a chance for me to shine and then take turns. And everything is about taking turns and supporting others. And even a mistake, we can try to cover it up without doing something repetitively to make the mistake meaningful or purposeful. And I don't know, there's just a lot in also the world of improvisation. And when I hear, for instance, when we are performing in New York, even in a large space like Roulette, you hear noises from the street and ambulance and police cars, and you never know. Or sometimes somebody's phone rings. And what I love about being a jazz musician is that we can incorporate that into our improvisation, and we don't have to always be judgmental. And it's like, you did something wrong. You are a bad person because you didn't forgot to turn off your phone. But we can have fun with it, and we can always just make things work and create harmony and create meaning. So I feel kind of hopeful and also at the same time, okay, why should we be just keeping that to ourselves? We should be able to share it and encourage it, and I would like the world to see us creating harmony together. Yeah,

Leah Roseman (01:50:18):

Beautifully said. Well, thanks so much for this today. Really appreciated this opportunity.

Meg Okura (01:50:24):

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Leah Roseman (01:50:28):

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Pleased to share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at leahroseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. The link is in the description. Have a wonderful week.