Shahriyar Jamshidi: Transcript
Leah Roseman:
Shahriyar Jamshidi is a Kurdish Canadian kamancheh player, composer and improviser, who grew up in Iran. He's collaborated with many musicians, including heavy metal cellist, Raphael Weinroth-Browne, in their duo Kamancello, and has released numerous albums, which feature his unique improvisational style. I find his playing to be extremely expressive and his personal story compelling.
Leah Roseman:
In this conversation, he performs several improvisations and he introduces us to the spiked fiddle, which is the ancestor of the violin, and is used across many cultures, and also speaks about the need for humanity to stay in touch with our traditional music. The transcript is available on my website, linked in the description, along with the link for both the video and podcast. I've added timestamps and the video has close captions.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Hello, Leah. How are you?
Leah Roseman:
Good. Shahriyar Jamshidi, it's very nice to meet you this way. So-
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Nice to meet you too.
Leah Roseman:
... you're going to introduce us to the kamancheh. I'm probably saying that wrong. Could you...
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
No, it's right.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. Kamancheh is a musical instrument, and kamancheh means a small arch bow in Persian and Kurdish language, and yeah, probably you need to see the instrument. And is an old instrument. And before showing the instrument, I would like to just say something about the history or something about the instrument and area they use it, they play the instrument there. Kamacheh is one of the famous bowed instrument in Middle East. Actually, it was Asia. When we say Middle East, it's coming to Arabic area, and they have a different instrument, and probably they call it rebab or rebek.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
But this one is different because it has a different music box. It's like a bow. And other instrument like kamancheh has just this small part. Probably in Turkey or Greece, we have the same instrument, but it doesn't have a music box like the kamancheh. Is just a piece of wood. And it seems just they are on it, wood, and there is no music box like this. And this instrument probably... is a story. Is a story from... Because the area had lots of bloody wars, and many documents just destroyed. After any empire, everything clear. And new empire made the New life. And after that, when they were defeated by another power, everything just gone.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And for the instrument... this instrument, kamancheh, just they found the name in a poem, in actually encyclopedia. It's called Durrat Al-Tāj. I don't know the name of the writer. And it's over a thousand years ago in a poem, just the Persian writer, Persian artist named the Kamancheh, the same name we know today in his book. But there are many different documents and it shows the age of instrument is over these days, and probably maybe over 2000 years ago.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And this instrument is Persian kamancheh because of the shape and size of the neck. But this instrument has a different size and shape. When the size and shape of instrument change, it's going to another area. It's like a language and accent. When you are talking about Indo-European language, any part of the Indo-European area, in Indo-European countries has a different accent and different language. It's a language, but different one. It's like an accent. And kamancheh has a thing like that.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
The shape of instrument, when you are going to Central Asia, Azerbaijan probably, you heard the name of Azerbaijan. It's a small country, but they love music, and they have a lot of great musicians. Because of the past system, the communism, and this system just try to educate people. And these people just separated from part of the Iran from... it's like 200 years ago. Azerbaijan just cut, and cut... They go to under the power of Russian empire that time. And they brought the culture from Persian area because Persia was a very big place, was a big country.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And that time, they brought kamancheh to the new area. They knew... It was their home, but the geographical border cut the country and they made a new country. And these people, Azeri people, with other language have a different kamancheh, and actually a different tar, probably with... It's like a lute, instrument they play it, like da-da-da-da, this way.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
As a... Just... They carry it hard. And this instrument, kamancheh, in Azerbaijan has a small neck and different strings. And they tune it one interval upper than this one, two that... just connection the neck and body is like a 27, 28 centimeter. But this instrument, my instrument, is a long one for men, for people... Because when you... The neck of instrument is longer, the sound of instrument is bass, is going to bass. It's not sharp.
Leah Roseman:
It's lower.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And this one... Yeah. This one is 31 centimeters and... the body. And the body, if you... I think you can see it well. The body is like a bow and my instrument has 80 pieces of two different woods.
Leah Roseman:
Really?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
The... Yeah, you can see it.
Leah Roseman:
So I'll just say for people listening to the podcast, who can't see this, it's like a bowl shape of wood, and like it's bent wood, and it's alternating different colors. It's very beautiful.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. They made it with two different woods, mulberry, Persian mulberry, white mulberry, and walnut. And just neck has it... just... they made it from walnut. All part of the instrument is walnut. Walnut wood. And it has a lamb skin membrane, and a bridge, small bridge. And four tuning... What's it called? Just like... For tuning.
Leah Roseman:
Fine tuners. Yeah.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Fine tuners. And the strings are... my strings are from viola because the shape of this instrument is longer than violin. Usually, they use a violin string in Iran, and they order the violin string and probably they add extra length to the top of the string to just put it in the pegs. But when I came out, just try to use the different strings, and I have a gut string. Actually is not a real gut. He's a synthetic gut string for D and G. And it's like a violin. E, A, D, and G. The strings. Another part is a bow. It's simple one. Very simple.
Leah Roseman:
And so I'm so curious about the hair, because it's so loose compared to violin family.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. Yeah. It's so loose because you can adjust it by your fingers. Because when you play the instrument, instrument is stay on just pin. And I forgot just mentioned this part. It's a metal pin.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And so we call that an end pin for a cello. It's the same as a...
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. End pin, like a cello. And you just turn the instrument. Probably you can see my finger. See it?
Leah Roseman:
Yes.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
With your finger. And when you put a bow on a instrument, the bow is in a right place, but you just adjust it, turn it in right and left, and don't move it. Sometimes, depends on a musician, some musician wants to add extra techniques, but usually is in the same place and you change instrument.
Leah Roseman:
Yes. That's very different.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Okay.
Leah Roseman:
Beautiful. Thank you so much.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
You're welcome.
Leah Roseman:
So, was that a traditional tune that you improvised on? Or was it...
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
You know, this mode, this scale, kind of scale... yeah, it's a Shur note. Or they call it Bayat in Arabic, but in most of the area they call it Shur. And just I played improvisation, and changes some key notes, and just get back to the main scale, the Shur. And I play A Shur. If you listen, just based on A.
Leah Roseman:
And when you learned, when you first learned the kamancheh, what was the way you were taught? Because I understand it's a lot of just listening and improvisation from the beginning?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. All music of the area, traditional music, need to just listen, not learn... It's totally different from Western culture, Western music. And you start to listen, listen to music, not play instrument a lot. You listen to the music traditionally because people... When you grow up, you grow up with songs and instrumental pieces, and vocal music. The vocal music is a main music of the area, all people singing, and just kept this kind of music for centuries, for centuries and yeah transporting music to another generation.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And for playing music, when you say "play music" we should say "singing" before playing music. Because if you can sing, you can play music. That's a simple thing. That's why when people growing up, they listen to mother, family, wedding and any place people just singing. And the poem is a important part because when we sing, needed poem, needed word, and we memorized the word, and word help us to memorize the tunes and intervals.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And this is the first part, and I'm going to the instrument. And after this, if the teacher or instructor knows, "Okay, you have ability or a skill to learn music," they try to teach you in another way. They're sitting on a floor, or probably today on a chair, and they give a same instrument to the person. And in early age is good because your mind is clear, and you can learn well. And just they play something for the student, and this person should repeat it. Repeat and repeat.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And in traditional way, I think 150 years ago, a hundred years ago... I'm just talking about Persian music now, not Kurdish music. We had a system, they call it Maktab Khanehei , is like a traditional system. All people, a student and teacher, sitting on the floor, and one person, or teacher or a leader just play a song. Like ta-da-da-da-tam-tam. It's like a few notes, and people try. Somebody just take a one note, another one second note, and somebody with just... I don't know, natural skill, get another note, get full after notes. And they share it together. This is a very old and traditional.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
About two day after this, one person just learning music, the teacher play things, simple things, and rhythmic things. But before anything, they teach the people just free rhythm songs because it's like bard music, vocal music. All of the music of the area is like in vocal music, all very old with poem, and teachers or instrumentalists try to play this kind of music.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And today, we use a both system. It's not just by ear or listening or practice. They wrote a lot of pieces like it. They use a Western notation. And we can use... We use both system. And the musician growing up, but the problem of this system, today people very like to use just notation. You know? Just read the scores because it's easy. It's very easy. And you don't need just pressure on your mind to just memorize, memorize. Because in this kind of music, memorizing the parts, sounds, it's important than playing the song because you need to keep it in your mind, then play it. And people don't have good memory to keep a lot of songs in their mind. That's just... is a bad part of this system. But like Western music, people just written note, and play scores. Yeah. That's it.
Leah Roseman:
And I'm curious, when it's written with Western notation, because some of the notes are not the same as Western scales, obviously. They're in between the notes. Are those notated in a certain way? Or is it just understood if you're...
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
No, we have different symbols to add to the music. And actually, if you just look at the softwares, like Sibelius or Finale, they have a quarter tone.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And yeah, they have two different... When you use a sharp note, half interval, half tone, less than sharp is they call it sori in Persian music. And if you play half tone, I forgot the name... They call it koron . Two koron is not a quarter. You can't count it. If you measure it, it's not correct because it's not real quarter note. And each musician have a different quarter tone. Skilled people... For example, in this area, the leader, the professional musician have... They have their ears, their music. They micro tune out the... How can I say it?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
They have a different tone. When they play the quarter tone, they have a different... Somebody playing higher, and another one played lower. You can't measure it. But it is like a taste of the food.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
But yeah. Yeah. And like other traditional culture, and we have just symbols for this, and for techniques as well. You know, we use all techniques from the bowed string instruments violin and viola. And we have different techniques because we use it some timbre to just add a taste, texture to the music.
Leah Roseman:
You were doing some of those in your last song. Can you show us some specific techniques?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
For example, I just... I will show you the two different quarter tones I just talked about. For example, here, A. This is the Western one. It's not Western, it's a half... half tone. But we... if you add... bring down your first finger, the second tone, si or B... We call it si, like Italian people. They call it si... si koron. See? This is normal. This is sharp. It's a little bit. Has a different personality. But if you play with half...
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Or another one for F sharp, see? This is a normal one. We use it in a little major. This is a major, but we... If you bring it back a little bit... Or getting back to the normal. Or quarter tone. And you should stay on it. It's like exaggerated tone because it's like a key. You should stay there and repeat it. It's like a stop note. See? But if you play the half... And other techniques, you have many techniques like others is...
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Many techniques, like other instrument, like violin or cello. Just I play something, and you are familiar with all of them. Vibration, sound vibration. Can you see the bow? See it has some techniques, personal techniques. If you change it in position here, bring it up as a different sound. Other vibration, glissando vibration. And we have something... I don't know the English word. We call it Tekyeh . It's like you use another finger, like hitting a small note for many... But when we play music, we have a lot of texture we add to the... when you play traditional one, not other music. See?
Leah Roseman:
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Here. Yeah. And other techniques for trill. Or...
Leah Roseman:
And you do plucking? Is that traditional? Because a lot of your albums, you do pizzicato.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. Yeah, pizzicato. Yeah. It is not traditional. Yeah. It's just personal thing for... We have many different plucking. See, you can use it with different fingers, or with left. Different plucking. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
That's really great.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
That's personal technique.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. For people who are listening to this and can't see, he was alternating plucking with both his left and right hand at the same time.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. And just both techniques, probably, we have just... Maybe different from violin or other instruments. You can see, yeah?
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Okay. Simple one. Or... Or simple one.
Leah Roseman:
Thank you. I could listen to you play all day. So one of your albums you recorded with a singer, but I know you often sing traditional Kurdish songs while you're playing. Is that part of the tradition, to sing while you play kamancheh?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
For kamancheh playing, no. I think it's hard for... when you play instrument like violin and kamancheh, and singing, simultaneously because it's hard to just make a balance between your song, your voice, and the instrument. But some people doing that just I try, because probably we forgot, talking about many thing before going on instrument, mentioning the instrument and techniques. This kind of music has a story. Personally, I try to show the instrument as a simple... and some instrument now playing in orchestra. You can see if you just have a little bit search on internet, you can find two, three kamancheh or one kamancheh in a big orchestra with 10, 12 people, and the other instruments cover the sound of the kamancheh.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And I just tried, started... After my education, I started to just do something just by myself, simple thing. And actually it's hard. You play violin, and when you are on a stage, everything is like... You don't have any cover, and you should be careful about things, like this instrument, because you can keep instrument in a right way. It's not a violin. You have some space and place. Okay, you can sleep on violin as well, but here you can do that. And I try to introduce Kurdish music, because Kurdish music... And if you listen to my kamancheh, my music, I'm trying to bring my instrument to the voice, voice of human. And we have a lot of techniques of singing, and we have many different genres of singing in different part of the Kurdistan.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Probably later, I'm a little bit talking about the Kurdistan, because when you're talking about people, cultures, you can add your music to this system, to the culture. And I try to present my music as a soloist, but I work with a traditional orchestra duo music trio music and many different things. But my preference is playing solo, because it's my sign, my signature. And in today life, in modern life, nobody care of acoustic music, and it's very hard. You have a big challenge to just present yourself your music, because our people... because we are living in modern era, and in modern era, people don't care about it, single song, single person. We need a big one, and that's why when you listen to the metal music, is a huge song, is an electronic song. And people love it because people need a huge food. When you see the portion of food people eating, is a big one, and actually they can't digest it, but they like it because it's a culture. And actually, I don't like this culture.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
That's why I play solo, and I need people like this... They need... let's going to mention it in another way. This system, this technology just stop us from thinking. And I try to give my music to people, they need to think, because when you listen to this just solo music, any kind of music, you can listen to the just solo guitar or the solo piano, any music, you have a time to think and going deep inside yourself. But when you are going out... Going out, it means you try to listen to the big music, big songs... you don't have a time to connect to yourself. You should go out. That's a story, and I'm trying to just present this kind of music.
Leah Roseman:
On many of your albums, you've overdubbed kamancheh parts. Are they all the same size? Because sometimes they sound much lower. Like the one you did, the yellow... What's the name of that?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
A Yellow Flower. Yeah. A Yellow Flower. Yeah. In Yellow Flower, I just arranged music for four to six kamancheh, and if you listen to the music, in this music, I didn't use any alto music, viola music, because... I can show you another instrument I have here. I put just viola strings on the instrument. The fourth string is a C, and you can use it. But for this album, just I use same kamancheh, different kamancheh, same range of the music, same level, with different kamancheh and different techniques. And if you're recording music, if you change your place behind the microphone, you can have a different sound. And yeah, for this album, I play few just part over-dubbed music. And... Go on please.
Leah Roseman:
I was just curious, for that album, because it's more orchestral... And it's very interesting, different styles I find in that music. Have you played any of those with other kamancheh players just to play it?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Unfortunately, no. This album has a different story. I composed... Actually, it's a composition because it's like a five, six... Actually, there was seven songs, seven Kurdish songs, and prohibited songs, because in Iran, in that system, radical country, Islamic radical system, you need paper for anything. When you record your music, you need to send your poem to the just few people sitting on a chair and reading your poem, because they have a border. And many real poem, real world, just they will delete it, and they can't go... You can record your music, but you are not allowed to just publicize your music.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And that's why for this, I just composed this music over five, six years, because of the situation in Iran. Since 2007 until '12, I haven't had any chance go on a stage because of the system, and I was just prohibited to working as a musician, because I needed just paper go on the stage, and it was very hard. And my last concert, it was 2007 with trio music. If you are going to Google, YouTube, you can find it. We played the traditional music material. But after that, I decided, okay, I can compose some different things for my kamancheh, and this composition, this album, took one year actually, because I played each part by myself, and I invited a percussionist and singer later, just complete the album.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
In 2012, this album just finished, and when it came out in 2014, I published it in Iran formally and in Canada, just online. It's vocal music, and probably when you're talking about vocal music, you have limited followers because it's not English. It's Kurdish, and in different language, and just few million people can listen to this music. And that's why this music... Actually, I have albums now. In all system, they just press a thousand CDs, not 250 or more. You should pay for a thousand.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And that time I paid for this, and actually the company helped me just... They publish it and they got paper from the government, and the poem is about love, almost love, love of... Yeah, love. It's not traditional. I put just... I choose a few different poem from modern poem, from famous poet Abdulla Pashew and old poem Hejar and other people in Kurdish Sorani. And Kurdish Sorani is just... We have a few different dialect in Kurdistan. This is Sorani. Iranian Kurds and Iraqi Kurds, they're speaking Sorani language. Anyway, I just published the album, and yeah, that's it. And this is... Sorry for that. I really like to bring this kind of music on a stage, probably just give the part, change a part for violin, for orchestra, for quartet. I don't know. Yeah, because they have a different range, and yeah, that's a different music.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I thought it would work for string orchestra, listening to -
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that's it. This is about this album.
Leah Roseman:
Speaking of languages, Kurdish languages, the different dialects are closely related to Persian, as I understand, and this is in the Indo-European language family, as opposed to Arabic, which is completely different language family.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah, different. Right. And Kurdish language actually has two different... We can say two different languages. They call it Kurmanji and Sorani. Kurmanji people, they living in Turkey and northwest of Iran, in two different area, because after the Qajar in Iran, probably you heard name after king of Iran, the first one, the Reza Khan, he just collect Kurdish people from border and sent them like refugee people, sent them to the northeast of Iran because of... He was worried about attack of Russia, because Kurdish people, they are brave and fighting, because they're living in a border. When you are in a border, you have a right to just protect yourself. And that's why these people, this language... I talk about Kurmanji people. They are in northeast of Iran, close to some part of Russia, Tajikstan or... It's not Russia today, but different countries. And in Turkey, border of Turkey and in Turkey,
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Another one, Sorani language, west of Iran, Kurdish people, and Iraqi from Erbil and Sulaymaniyahthey have the same language. And one different thing. In Sorani, like a Persian or Arabic, they use same alphabet. They write same alphabet, but for Kurmanji, is like Turkish or... It's like a... Some word is... They write it like English, but they have different syllables and... like French. Yeah. That's why those people can't understand each other. That's part of the politic, because in Turkey, the system changed, the alphabet, and we had... I think it's about 70, 80 years ago they changed alphabet, and before that time we had a lot of poem and history and story in the same language. But they changed alphabet and separate people in that way. And right, this language have a relationship with Persian language.
Leah Roseman:
So you grew up in the the city of Kermanshah? Is that the right way to-
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Right. Kermanshah. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I looked at pictures on Google. So beautiful.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. It's a beautiful mountain area. Kurdistan is in mountain. People like, love mountain. Yeah, I grew up in this city, and actually I grew up in a war. Eight years of my life, not myself, all people of the country, just wasted for just hiding and protecting yourself because of war. And eight years is a huge time in your life, and those years, we didn't go to school. On and off, going to school. And education, no education, no cultures, nothing, just fighting for nothing. And due to this situation, probably...
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Actually, I would like add something here. You know about politics in Middle East. I'm sure you know about this. In 1978 or '79, the government totally changed, and the Islamic government just had the power, got the power, and they cleared everything, the freedom, music, singing and everything. And I was seven when things changed. I grew up with the radio, because radio was the only choice you freely just listen to the music at night. Most radio, at night they had songs. I remember I listened to Kurdish radio of Baghdad and another city, Dohuk, both in Iraq, but one of them, it was in Kurdistan of Iraq, and another in Baghdad. They played emotional music, folk music, and I grew up with this music and just memorized them. This very, too much, helped me to understand the music.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Another important thing is the language. In our area, the focus is on the main language, the Persian language, because of the official language, the governmental language, and there is no chance to learn your mother tongue language at the school or in professional way. I remember my father, my parents were originally Kurds, but they didn't speak in Kurdish at home, and I haven't had the chance to learn Kurdish. Radio helped me to get in touch with my background language, and later, when I went to university... At age 21 I went to University of Tehran after passing the private music class for two years. That time, I started to learn Kurdish language. It's a big gap in your life.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And that's why I'm so curious about language. Language is part of any culture. When we are talking about language, we are talking about music, because music is poem. Poem is music, song. All of these three things connecting together, making songs and making cultures. That's why that time, I tried very hard to just... As a self taught musician, part of... Probably you know, in traditional music, part of your education is learning by yourself. I'm sure in classical music, we have the same thing. Everything is not at a school or on your mind of your teacher. You should do something by yourself. And in traditional music, most of the music is your work. You get ideas, and you just make it, build it, build this for yourself.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
That's the story of traditional music. Probably if you are talking with another musician from different background, they have the same idea. Language, music, and actually in Kurdish culture, dance is a main important part of the culture. I think the only group of people in the world... The Kurds are only group of people in the world, they are dancing every time, when they are sad, when they are happy, all time. If you check online... Dance is part of our culture. And as you mentioned before, about rhythm from Balkan, all of these rhythm connected to the dance. In Kurdish culture, we have a lot of dance, and all people... Actually, I don't do dance. I played for dancers when I was at the university. I went to different places, just learn and get in touch with people.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah, this is... All of this story, we grew up with this and with them, and I listen to music because I grew up in a traditional, rich, very rich traditional culture. And every day we just listen to music. Music for Kurds is like food, like water, air. And actually, this system just closed everything, closed the theater, concert hall, and musician didn't have a chance to play music, because if you play music, you should go to jail, or maybe kill you. Some crazy people kill musician. Many musicians lost their life for nothing in that country. And that time, just I haven't had any chance, you can imagine, war and changing the system, until age 17. I just tried to listen to music of-
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
I just try to listen to music of friends and family because I grew up in Kurdish culture. All people playing tanbur. It's a long-necked lute or oud they call it in English. And I play something that time. I just more listen. As I said before, in this culture, traditional culture, you need documentation. You need to document in your head, in your mind. And when you have enough materials in your mind, you can start learning music. It's totally different. Actually in classical music, we have the same thing. In classical music, you should listen a lot to different genre and different composers, and then you are working. But as a musician, you need this. It's like reading book for writers. And that time, just informal. I learned music and listened a lot to the music.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
After that, when the leader of the government, Khomeini, passed away and war done, war gone, and things changed. And they started to open little bit doors. And I had the chance to go to the private violin class. Actually, the violinist Mahmoud Marati is a great musician and great teacher. He played the violin and I play kamancheh, duplicate the sound. And I just learned a notation, western notation from him because he played violin classical and Persian violins. And yeah, that's a story of music.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
But about the town you ask me before, I didn't forget. Yeah, it's a beautiful town. And the majority of people are Kurds, but it's half and half. As I said before, the system, the radical system ... Any radical system changing, change everything. Clear everything. Reza Khan change the culture. And after this, other people change the culture. For example, the actual language is Persian and the worker for government coming from Persian area, not Kurdish people. And this changing the ... I forgot the word. Demography. Demography is changing. And after years, probably 50, 30 years, the language is changed. The culture, the clothes, and everything. Yeah. This is a system in Middle East. Many countries doing the same thing in Turkey, in Syria. We know that. And in Afghanistan as well today. Yeah, that's it.
Leah Roseman:
So when they had the absolute ban on music, as well, vocal, traditional music was also banned? Wow.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Anything. The first group of people were under the pressure the women. The voice of women, if you women sing, they're going to hell. That's simple because of the system and the ideology. And that's why singing the first things, they stop people to sing. And ladies, if you just check Iran after 43 years. 43 is a big life. Women, they're not allowed to sing just separately as a soloist. They singing with men because it is like a choir song and they change the volume of women, bring it down. And the volume of men is up. And that's the story.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And actually for musician as well, women they do not allow play music. They play music with men, but if they have a band, for example, women just present music for women in private place. For example, if they sell a ticket in a theater, just for ladies. Not men. Yeah. Actually that's a stupid thing. And they destroyed life of people in Iran. I remember if you check on, we had the great symphony orchestra. Many famous musician around the world came to Iran and played in recitals, concertos, and anything. But now, we have you know - On and off music and we have a great musicians, but they don't have a chance. And many of them just going out of the country. And we did the same thing.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. So when did you immigrate-
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Changing your life.
Leah Roseman:
Okay.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
In 2012. As I said before, 2007, until 12, I haven't had any chance. And it's like you are living in Europe just forever. And we try. Just got immigration with our immigration papers accepted. And we paid everything. Yeah. Not as a refugee. We paid. We came with our money and is it this? But I like Canada. Yeah. It is a great country. Yeah. Because they accept all cultures. That's very important in our crazy world living in. You can see the Russia killing other people in Syria, killing another Iraq, but Canada just share their love and keep the people because we don't have a time to spend for what?
Leah Roseman:
So when you came to Canada, I'm curious in the Iranian community, are there a lot of Kurds? Is there a great diversity of people coming from that region that settled in Canada that you met, or?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. We have a big community of Kurdish people and Persian people. And I work with Persian people as well in Canada. I work with Toronto's Tirgan festival. Few times I performed there. And Kurdish came in, you have powerful and just hard worker of Kurds in Canada too. They try to present their cultures and I work with them. And yeah. We have over 5 million Kurds around the world in Europe, North America. And about 10 million ... 7 million is not right number, Persian people. It's a huge number. It's like a country, but separated. Yeah. I worked with them.
Leah Roseman:
I was curious because when you came to Canada, you got some interesting opportunities. You went to Banff to do a residency there?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Right. In 2017, I applied for Banff and just create my project proposal. I sent my proposal and they accepted. And I think it was new for Banff in some way. And because they try just make a residency for classical musician. And I don't know. Maybe for popular music or other genre, we have a residency, but for world music and traditional music, I think I don't say I was first person. When I came there, next day we were for interview to each other and we were talking and I was only person play traditional or classical music from other cultures all people from university staff, professional musician. And it was a great chance for me because I had the chance to play improvisation with classical musician. Everybody love improvisation music.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
You can just tune your instrument, play with piano or cello or singers. Yeah. It was a great time. And I brought my project , my project was solo music. And probably at the end of the residency, you have a chance to play your music and perform with other musicians. And I play solo about 20 minutes. And later I put something of that music in my new album, the right album. Recently, I publicize and worked with different musicians. I remember I play with ... I think a lady, she plays I think country music from US. Kim Richey, I think so. She invited me and we had a concert at the place there. And I play with drum and bass guitar. I play with piano, but not as a concert. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a great opportunity for everybody just if you need, you should try it.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I never did that. I kind of regret not having had that opportunity. It's a wonderful Canadian thing. And I was curious, you went to as Azerbaijan. It was the International Society for Music Education. You were invited to that conference?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Right. And actually just, I applied for this conference and they accepted me. And when you apply for just conference connected to you, to the university, you should write it, great proposal for music because you are an individual and you are not under the name of any universities. And I applied for this and they accept my application. And actually, I awarded from them. I got award and I think it was a great chance, tremendous chance for me to connect with these people, people from UK and Australia. And they had the conference in Baku 2018 for a week. Yeah. And I met many great scholars and musicians, but I haven't had the chance to play with musicians and just going to the rooms and for interviews for papers. They brought many papers. But for myself, I had the chance to meet a famous Kamancheh player, Munis Sharifov. Munis Sharifov Is a famous Kamancheh from Baku, Azerbaijan.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
I was a student in Iran in university, at Tehran. He came as a performer in Iran. And for a few months he was in Iran. I had the chance to meet him and play with him. And I learned many things from him. And that time he came to my concert. You can imagine after 20 years, he came to my concert. Different people, but after 20 years. And yeah. This is the, I think one of things I can't even remember from that conference. And after that, yeah. I would like to try go to another conference as well, because we are living in a small world and I don't like sitting behind the borders. We should pass, cross the borders because we are human and we play music. No matter you play classical music, traditional, Celtic, anything, we play song. You make a song.
Leah Roseman:
I also noticed in-
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
That's it.
Leah Roseman:
International Society for Improvised Music. You played at a conference in Toronto and Waterloo a few years ago. You played a trio with a couple of guitarists, Serbian-
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Right. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And Jewish, and you kind of mixed up some improvisation. What was that like?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Right. Right. Yeah. It was great. The first time I went to Switzerland, the first time in 2000 ... I think '15. I went to Switzerland and I met people, met a musician there. And after that, they came to Toronto because the conference just take place in Ontario. And they came there and I invited a Jewish guitarist and another guitarist. They are in the same university, University of Minnesota. They working there and they came there. And after that conference, the professor of music, the composition music, Alex Lubet, is a great man and great musician. He invited me as a residency to go to a music school there.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And 2018, I went there as a lecturer and I present my music and talking and playing with, I think, orchestra. Different orchestra, different musician there. And we had the two nights concert and recorded CD. We recorded a CD and it's like four years just waiting to publish the CD. Maybe this year or later, because of many things happen because of Corona. And I record the CD, record the album with ukulele. And I don't know. The name of the guitar different is a guitar. I don't know the name of this guitar. Sorry for that moment. Yeah. Album is ukulele and guitar. Different things.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. It's curious because when I was reading you played with a Balkan musician and I was thinking the rhythms in a lot of the Kurdish music I've heard you play on your albums, to me it sounds a bit Balkan. Like the feeling of the groove.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Actually. Right. They are in the same thing. But one thing about the Balkan music is if you look back to the Ottoman Empire, Ottoman Empire brought the culture of the West Asia to Balkan. That's why when you listen to Balkan music, you touch same things. Yeah. This is a history. It's so crazy. When you are going to Spain, they play music, it's like Arabic music because of the Arab just go there. And for Balkan music, yeah, they have the same rhythm, but with different culture because of language and dances. And all these kind of rhythm 7, 8, 5, 8, have a different dance. Yeah. They have the same culture, right.
Leah Roseman:
Your album Call of the Mountains with Mohsen Badri on percussion, I really love that as well. It's such a beautiful marriage of the different sounds. Actually, could we have a music break? Would you be willing to play some more for us?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Beautiful. Thank you so much. I'm curious, when you go to your Kamancheh every day or if you play every day, are you improvising mostly? Do you have the way you practice, or?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
The way of practice, actually, every day I start with improvisation because your mind is fresh. And in improvisation, you can use your techniques daily practice. It's different. For example, I know violinists they have a few techniques every morning. They should do the same thing, but probably they play their notes. But for me, I play the improvising with some techniques to warm up my fingers. And then if I like, I'm going to just play the scores.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Or listening to the song, play with the song, I'm just focusing on traditional music. And actually if you check my website, I work with symphony orchestra, with classical musicians, but my main focus is old traditional music. And I'm trying to find a way bring that music to the daily life. Because it's like you are going to the museum when you see the stuff and museum, new tools, stuff, everything on music, you can use them now. Actually, yeah. They so expensive, but this you can use them. And for me, I'm trying to connect to the old music and get my idea. Just everybody has a different idea and bring it to the new life for today. That's why I very much love old music because we need a connection to the past.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Well, we didn't talk about your most recent recording, which is so powerful and expressive. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Sure. Sure. This recording, My Sunset Land Rojava. Rojava is a name probably, is Kurdistan. Yeah. As a Kurd help people just to find their self after the war. And I was focusing on women because in Middle Eastern countries, women, they have a poor situation. They don't have enough support from government and community. And in this area, just, women were a leader for people. They were fighting, briefly fighting, and many people just passed away. They just lost their life for just freedom of the country. Freedom of their place ... Actually, they don't have a free place now. And probably, they are under pressure of Turkey in the border. But that time, I just think of Rojava and I dedicate one of my songs to the brave women, Viyan. And I didn't know her. Just I learned from internet teacher, a singer from Iranian Kurdish city from the border, just left everything behind and just went to Rojava and fight. And it is a big choice and nobody can do that.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And just, I dedicate the name of the song to her and compose this song for her. And if you check, I have videos for this album. Fortunately, I try to hire refugee people from our place. I try. But it was very hard. For example, if you look at just picture of the album is from Zehra Dogan. Zehra Dogan, she's a Kurdish activist and great painter from Turkey, from Kurdistan. And just, I tried to find her and fortunately on Facebook I found her representer. And I got her photo for my album.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And for a video, another person in France. Yeah. I tried to share my music with people because we have many, many great professional artists around the world. They don't have a chance to work. That is so easy. It's easy to find them, but the opportunity is not easy. That's why I focus on this. And fortunately, I receive a grant from Ontario Art Council and Toronto Art Council as well. Yeah. Two grants together. And yeah. They helped me to just professionally record the music and press the CDs and everything. But I released the album in middle of the pandemic because I had a deadline for just releasing the album like other artists-
Leah Roseman:
That album? Very, very powerful. I've listened to it quite a lot. But when I first heard it, I found it hard because it's very emotional. It's not so bright. It's very dark.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. A dark, dark music.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. But then I realized we need that. Right? We're-
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yeah. Because we need a contrast. And we can't just forget bad things because we need a balance, good and bad. If you're just thinking about it, best thing, good things, you can't compare it. And we need a comparison and that's why. And this is part of our culture. This is part of the world. And if you look to the news, you can see the.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
If you look at you know, to the news, you can see that Ukrainian people, they are dying for nothing, you know. And this is a sad thing. And you can't forget it. And this is part of our life. And probably, we need this kind of music. And yeah, it's sad. Yeah, anyway.
Leah Roseman:
But I think music can... You know, art in general, but I think, really music can express things that we don't know how to say. And it really comes through-
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Right.
Leah Roseman:
... in your playing. So thank you.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And, another track in this album is called Tears of Shingal. Tears of Shingal is a song for Yazidi women. They were, you know, raped and killed by you know, the crazy group in, you know, Syria and Iraq a few years ago. It's not... We didn't pass this story. If you check, you can see over 2,500 girls, they're not at their home.
Leah Roseman:
Yep.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And nobody know about them today, you know. And many people just die for nothing. And just I tried okay to just think of these people because we are human. Yeah. And unfortunately, they have a problem today as well. If you check the news, yeah, nothing changed. Just people died and they're living in a destroyed place without anything, without support, without government and anything. And I just tried, you know, to light a flame for these people because, for example, people open the album and see their names before, you know, listen to the music. When you're seeing the names, try to find, what's the that's name? And this is a way to just connect people together. And actually it's hard, and it's very sad, and always when I listen to that music, I'm, you know, getting a bad feeling. Trust me. But anyway, this is music, and yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And, so for that album, you did a lot of overdubbing. You record yourself.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Yes.
Leah Roseman:
So what's that process like in terms of the producing of the album? Actually, many of your albums, they're improvised with overdubbing, so.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Right, right.
Leah Roseman:
Did you do different takes and try what works better, or?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Actually, for improv, this album has two composed arranged songs and I think, yeah, seven improvisation and the improvisation recorded in two days, two different days. If you listen to the song, they, they have a little bit, you know, difference between others, with their taste and their modes and for improvisation, actually, this is my idea. I'm doing one take music without, you know, cutting or, you know, editing without, you know, tuning as well. Because when you touch the music, the, this is not your music and you should just try to record another one. When you touch it. Improvisation, I say about improvisation, not composed, not, you know, orchestra or songs you have a metronome, or other thing for improvisation, you can cut or, you know, just fix anything.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
If you did bad things you should just delete it. And that's why I record this album. This just improvisation part two times, two different days.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And they have a, probably same feeling, same, you know, tempo. When you listen to the improvisation, any improvisation around the world from a musician is like, you know, when we are talking, we have a speed. When we play music improvisation, we have the same speed because in our mind, it's not a poem or world. I do know the, you know, the word about this, but in our mind we just structured the music.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
We don't understand. We don't feel, we don't touching the music. We just insert your idea in your, on your musical instrument. And for, to other songs. You said overdubbed, for the first one is that I think it's about nine minutes. It's a long song. And two times it's repeating. And it's very, you know, is a very hard piece. The Viyan song, because the rhythm is different and speed. And you're going to, you know, down to the position, you know, high positions. And I record this just in one take one time, it was very hard, but, but for many days just I practiced this and it has a few layers just over top the layers for this one, but for another one. Yeah. That one took a lot of time and I take a time, took a time to just complete this one.
Leah Roseman:
And I'm just curious, a couple more questions about your improvisation. Do you anticipate, do you hear in your mind what you're about to do usually or not?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Actually, it's hard to say that, but for myself you need, you need travel to where you love, like where you love. And for me, just, I am closing my eyes oing to the, to my place, you know, you know, childhood time, the mountain, the place, I love it. And at this moment you try to just play music inside yourself. This is my, my idea. I, it's hard to, you know, imagine and you know, speak about it. That's why, and for example, you are living in UK or Germany or Canada anywhere, but you feel your feeling is going to, you know, middle east to Kurdistan or any places. And it's hard to connect, if this is my idea, actually, if you don't have a, you know, connection with your music, you can play improvisation. You can, sorry, you can play improvisation, but is not your improvisation. And for myself, yeah. I'm going to, you know, past.
Leah Roseman:
And then do you remember what you've just played when you're improvising? Like if you play a phrase for me, would you be able to play it back
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Sometimes, sometimes. And because improvisation, it has a structure for just that piece. You can, you know, listen to your improvisation because you play this and add something, but you can play the same things. And sometimes you finger because you play the kamancheh and violin, they don't have it, you know, fret. And that's why sometimes you exactly, you know, make a pressure on it. You know, some, some tones and maybe it's higher than the normal, for example. Or sometimes you bring, you know, down a tone because of your feeling. And other time you try to, you know, do something and this music is hard. And that's why my idea for improvisation, I think is hard to add things to improvisation or duplicate it. You can duplicate, but is very hard.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, no, I was just curious about the memory on season one, I talked with Hooshyar Khayam and he was saying a lot of improvisers from the middle east, do remem... are trained to remember what they just played. So I was curious if
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
That's a, that's a different story, for example. Yeah. Right. We have a, you know, fixed music, structured music, like Persian music, classical Persian music, they call it's a seven, you know, seven different modes, seven different maqams, seven different, you know, scales. And they have small, small pieces. They call it gusher. It's like, you know, a building.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
High rising building and a small, you know, units. And each unit has rooms. And for this music, they have a melody fixed melody, actually. Okay. And musician just memorized the fixed melody. But when they improvise, improvise the Iranian classical music, for example, they play Shahnaz Guše piece. They use structure and they add the, you know, taste. But if they want to just play the same thing, like, you know, you want play the Bach, same thing. We don't adding anything. Simple thing. You should do the same things.
Leah Roseman:
Right.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And we have a different Dastgāh different, you know, performed Dastgāh from different musician. It's like, you know, different genre, different culture, for example, another tar player had a different Radif of different music and another one with different techniques and different texture. And it is like, it's a genre in music. That kind of music.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
But for improvisation, no, you can add something, but you can't, for example, you can't in classical music, and traditional music. You can't cross the borders, if you cross probably they don't like your music.
Leah Roseman:
Right.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
But when you say, okay, I play completely improvisation, you are free to do that.
Leah Roseman:
Right. Okay. I understand. So there's very strict rules in the classical Persian music. And then you're, and I know a lot of what you play in
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And Arabic music, Arabic music has the same thing.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And for example, in Kurdish music, in Kurdish music, we have a vocal songs in three different areas. I just, I would like you to add this to my, you know, convers... our conversation in Kurmanji language. I've talked about in Turkey and you know, west of Iran, we have a song vocal song. It's like a bard, vocal song. They call it Dengbêji dang means voice Dengbêji. It's a different style with different language, a totally different technique. But in Soranî language in Iran and Iraq, we have a Gooranibej. Gorani means song, but the technique and vocal totally different is very close to Persian music. This kind of, you know, vocal music and other things in west of Iran in, you know, a small place. They, the place is they call it Avroman.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Another place they call it close to my, you know, city, hometown Kermanshah there, the song they call it Siyachamana, is it, is it black eyes for girls, you know, is a love story. And the techniques and way of singing totally different, you know, from different parts of your, you know, tongue you sing. And another one they call it Chamari or Horah, they other vocal song, but from different area and totally different.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
For example, for musician, you musician, if you listen to each other, you can't, you know, you don't have any way to connect it with another one. It's, it's so amazing. And this kind of music has a base, you know, mode, for example, they start in a mode, same mode, but they have a way to improvise. And the important part in this kind of vocal music is a poem is like a storytelling. They choose it, you know, long story and with the same melody, but in each phrase, each, you know, phrase in each part of the poem, they have a different feeling and different texture. Yeah. That that's amazing. And for myself, I tried, I'm trying actually to get something from that music, vocal music inside to Kamancheh to my music.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Interesting. Is there anything we didn't talk about today that you wanted to talk about?
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Actually, I would like talk about my other project Kamancello, yeah. We, we have a Canadian do I'm working with Raphael Weinroth-Browne and yeah. The cellist, he's a classical, you know, musician actually, but today is a metal musician and sometimes, sometimes I, he, he's working with me as a, you know, improvisers, you know, he's adding his idea, his music, you know, you can imagine his music, contains, you know, classical and metal music. Yeah. You know, to read from metal music, very sharp and, you know, aggressive and the techniques from classical music. And I play, you know, traditional music with traditional technique it's not traditional technique because you know, better than me, all bowed string, have the same techniques because you, us bow and your right and left hand. Yeah. And I'm playing melody actually. And he's adding his stuff to this music and we recorded three albums, Kamancello, Voyage, and Of Shadows.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And in 2017, we record all albums is so, you know, interesting. We record this three albums in two days.
Leah Roseman:
Wow!
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And just, yeah, we don't do any, you know, touching or editing. It's very hard, you know, and just publish one by one. And last one, 2020, just published, you know, in a pandemic, we published it as a digital album, and another project or not project CD I mentioned before, I have a CD on the way with American musician guitarist, professor Alex Lubet and I had, I have another project, another CD published with another guitarist from international society for improvised music. He's a, he was actually a manager of the community, Richard Robeson , and he's a famous musician, but he's a, you know, university staff. He's a, I think he's at another job, but he's a good musician. And he brought his music from Algeria and some part of middle east, with guitar and ukulele and UK to Toronto, 2016.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And when he recorded that album, the album named "Meet Me in Tangier". Meet Me in Tangier, yeah. Is name of the album. If you check my, you know, discography, you can see the album yeah. Is with Persian percussion, Kamancheh and different guitars. Yeah. This one published in 2016. Fortunately I had the chance, you know, bring my culture, you know, experience to Canada and other parts of the world and learn a lot every day. Learning from people from different cultures to the, I learned from you because I had the time, you know, to get some ideas from you, from other people, because every moment we are learning, and this is a big chance for all of us, because we are, we are living in a place without any borders, without anything. For example, if you want to go on the stage, you just rent a stage and going on stage, play your music, your poem.
Leah Roseman:
Mm-hmm.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
But in many places I have, you know, many great musicians for it, they don't have a chance to go on the stage. They just playing for themselves, that's a, that's a big, you know, big contrast. That's why, that's why I, you mentioned before this kind of music is another one is happy. We need a, both in, we have a, you know, we can compare it. We have a chance to compare it and we keep both happiness and sadness. This is part of life. And anyway, yeah, this, this was my story. And thank you so much for having me and giving me this time.
Leah Roseman:
But you've been so generous with, with your time today, but I'm wondering if you feel like playing a little bit more before we close out, that'll be wonderful.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
Sure, sure. I actually did. Yeah, sure, sure. And I think before playing music, I would like to say, thank you to your, to just getting in touch with me, you know, trying to find me. And I know today is not easy and it takes time, you know, managing time. And we, I'm new with this software actually. And you know that, and I was curious, okay, this one, it works, and fortunately I think it working because we don't have any delay when we talking or playing and that's why, but I appreciate your time and I hope we have a time to, you know, meet in person later.
Leah Roseman:
Yes.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
And I'm, I'm very happy to, you know, have this chance to introduce my music in your channel, to your, you know, followers. And actually it's, it is a great idea. Which you have a different musicians from different genres and cultures and it's important for being, being Canadian. Canadian, it means multicultural country. It's not just work because we are living in this society and we all understand this. Anyway, I play probably different piece in different mode.
Leah Roseman:
Wow. Thank you so very much.
Shahriyar Jamshidi:
You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:
The link for my podcast website is in the description for all the episodes, both video and podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, you may enjoy the conversations I had with Hooshyar Khayam and Patty Chan in season one. Please follow this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, and if you would consider rating and reviewing it will help other listeners find the series. Thanks.
