DeWitt Fleming Jr. Interview
Below is the transcript for my interview with DeWitt Fleming Jr. and the link to the podcast, video and show notes is here.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. is a multi-talented and brilliant performer, renowned for his tap dancing, choreography and acting, and is also a singer and drummer. As he said to me in this interview “when I’m tap dancing I’m drumming”. You’ll hear about his experience growing up in the Projects, the importance of attending an Arts high school, the usefulness of theatre training for musicians, and insights into memorization, mindset and performing. He shared his experiences working with Wynton Marsalis, meeting his wife the actor and singer Jennie Harney-Fleming, with whom he’s presently performing A Wonderful World: The Louis Armstrong Musical, his experiences with Cirque du Soleil and touring internationally with Riverdance, and most recently playing both drums and performing tap with the Hot Sardines in Tokyo.
Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on all the podcast platforms.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:00:00):
Being as popular as he is, being a celebrity that he is, all the stuff he does, he took time for us. I mean, this guy is one of the busiest people I know. Whenever I see him, he's always got a stack of papers and he's writing music and he is doing everything and he's helping run the business. He's managing a band, he's doing all these things, but he still has time to connect with people and he still has time to try to pull somebody up and give them experience they might not have or to educate or teach somebody. And that says a lot, man. There's no one that plays like him and does the thing he does, that he does, and yet he still finds time. People do half of what he does and say they don't have time for people.
Leah Roseman (00:00:57):
Hi, I’m Leah Roseman and this is my podcast, Conversations with Musicians. I hope this series inspires you through the personal stories of a diversity of musicians, with in-depth conversations and great music, that reveal the depth and breadth to a life in music. DeWitt Fleming Jr. is a multi-talented and brilliant performer, renowned for his tap dancing, choreography and acting, and is also a singer and drummer. As he said to me in this interview “when I’m tap dancing I’m drumming”. You’ll hear about his experience growing up in the Projects, the importance of attending an Arts high school, the usefulness of theatre training for musicians, and insights into memorization, mindset and performing. He shared his experiences working with Wynton Marsalis, meeting his wife the actor and singer Jennie Harney-Fleming, with whom he’s presently performing A Wonderful World: The Louis Armstrong Musical, his experiences with Cirque du Soleil and touring internationally with Riverdance, and most recently playing both drums and performing tap with the Hot Sardines in Tokyo. Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on all the podcast platforms, and I’ve also linked the transcript to my website Leahroseman.com .It’s a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to you every week, and I do all the many jobs of research, production and publicity. You can support this independent podcast through both my merchandise with a unique design from artist Steffi Kelly, as well as through my Ko-fi page.The podcast theme music was commissioned from composer Nick Kold, and you can use the timestamps to navigate the episode. This weekly podcast is in Season 4 and I send out an email newsletter where you can get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Have a look at the description of this episode, where you’ll find all the links.
Leah Roseman (00:02:42):
Hey, DeWit, thanks so much for joining me tonight.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:02:44):
Yes, thank you for having me.
Leah Roseman (00:02:47):
We just had some technical problems and I know you've had a very long day of rehearsals for your new show, and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:02:57):
Of course, of course.
Leah Roseman (00:02:58):
I first saw your dancing and your drumming when I was researching J. Walter Hawkes, and I saw some work you'd done with the Hot Sardines. I brought you up when I was speaking with him. I had never seen that before. Someone tap dancing to jazz.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:03:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Leah Roseman (00:03:16):
But a long history of dancing and jazz in that way.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:03:21):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, jazz has been around for a long time, and tap dance has been around for a longer time. Tap dance was the keeper of the rhythm, like the drum and that swing rhythm, that six eight feel that we know that really cultivated jazz music, the tap dancers were doing it and keeping that time, keeping that culture alive, keeping that tradition alive. So the dancers really helped to keep the music alive, to be able to create all the music that we have in here today. So it kind of starts with the dancers, really.
Leah Roseman (00:04:12):
So actually going back to slavery, slavery, the slavery, slaves weren't permitted to have drums, right?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:04:20):
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes, this is correct. However, that wasn't the start of creating rhythms with defeat and rhythmic dancing. That was something that helped us to preserve things while we were here. But the idea of rhythmic dancing goes back way, way, way, way before any settlers ever came to America. That's a common misconception that tap dance as we know it today, is an art form that was formed and created here in the United States. 100%. But the roots and the idea of dancing rhythmically with one's feet is something that goes back a long, long, long time.
Leah Roseman (00:05:16):
Yeah. I mean, in many cultures too.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:05:21):
Yeah. I mean, the root of it is definitely African, and I've had this conversation so many times, and I love it because we, as Americans unfortunately, sometimes believe that everything that the rest of the world didn't communicate with each other, didn't trade with each other, didn't have relationships with each other, didn't trade cultures with each other like we do in the States. We feel like a lot of times that that started with us or that we were kind of around the same time when this started happening. But you got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of Africa trading with Ireland of Africa, trading with Europe in general, Portugal, Spain.
(00:06:21):
It was a group of people called the Berbers. If you look at their history, they're responsible for taking culture, goods, music, all types of things, religion, and spreading it all throughout the Middle East and Europe. And they are a lot of, I think, have a lot to do with a lot of African cultures being spread throughout the world. You look at that area of the world right there where you have northern Africa, Spain, India, Portugal, and you started to see a lot of similarities. They were all trading with each other, culture, goods, they were all exchanging. And then the cool thing about it is that you got Ireland, which is a little further north, but it's straight line. The west coast of Ireland is straight line down from northern West Africa, Portugal, and there's a Celtic town, a place called Galicia that used to be in Portugal, which goes back a long, long time as well. So what we know from that is that the trading was happening, the culture was happening. Even when you go to Ireland and you talk about you go to Galway, they have a very rich tradition there called Sean-nós dance, which predates Irish dancing. If you look at it, it looks a lot like tap dancing. And if you talk to Sean-nós dancers and some of the historians, they talk about when the Africans and the Spaniards would come over to the west coast of Ireland, and they did that because of they were, of course, it was the quickest route, but also you had the English who were feuding with everybody. Were on the east side, the east coast of Ireland and places like Dublin. And so it's no wonder that you got Spaniards, the Africans, the Portuguese, all going to the West, and you have so much rich culture there. So I say all that to say we as humans have been trading and creating with each other for a long, long, long time.
Leah Roseman (00:09:01):
Yeah, that's super interesting about the dance history, which I didn't know about. I mean, I've talked to people on this podcast from all kinds of places, and it's really interesting to see the evolution of instruments and also rhythms through Bulgaria and Iran and all these things I always want to see, so fascinating. But let's go to more recent history. I saw a little bit of a clip of your one man show Hoofin' out of the Hood, and which do you want to talk to us about that?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:09:35):
Yeah, absolutely. So that came about. There's a woman, her name is Yvonne. I call her my aunt because there's a good buddy of mine who I call my brother. We grew up together in DC and when I graduated from Marymount Manhattan College, I was doing the performer hustle, getting gigs and running around doing whatever to pay the bills. And I was at her house and she said, you need a job? And I said, yeah, I'm gigging. And she said, no, you need a job. You could pay your bills and focus on your art and not stop all this running around. And I said, okay. At the time, she was the public defender for New Jersey, and she said, why don't you come work as a secretary? I'll train you. And then in about six months to a year, you'll be one of my criminal investigators. And I said, okay. So I preface that story, just there's more to that story, but I preface that story to talk about the relationship that we had. Fast forward, she's working at a professor at Kean University teaching law, and she said, we have this program.
(00:11:03):
We have, Ms. Seiger became a professor at Kean University teaching law. And she had some students who were from similar backgrounds as me. And so she wanted me to come and talk to them about my story. And she said, can you give an hour and a half presentation? And so initially I thought, well, it's nothing special about my story. And my buddy who's on it was he said to me, you don't realize what you've done and where you come from and how inspiring that is. And it's funny because when you're in it, when you're doing it and you're just going and it's just something that you know have to do and you just go, go, you don't really reflect on what you've done, even sometimes where you came from or what you've been able to accomplish, there's so much more to be done that you really feel like you haven't done what you really need to do yet.
(00:12:17):
And so when he told me, I guess even to him, how it was inspiring, I had to sit back and I just thought about from when I left DC as Washington DC as a teenager to when I moved to New York up to then all the things that I've done, I kind of started to see what he and his aunt were talking about. And so I just started writing down my story. I started writing down the neighborhood I grew up in, things that I've went through in that neighborhood, how important it was to me to go to an arts high school, how it saved my life once I went to Arts High School, then I went to college in New York, and how I just never looked back. And that's kind of where that show came from, and it was recorded. And so I took it and I said, well, if, I mean, some kids came up crying afterwards because they had connected with me as far as being in a position where it was something they loved to do, but they were afraid to let others see them do it something they wanted to do. And just being able to be themselves in an environment where no one looks like them, no one looks like you. No one talks like you dresses, like you being afraid to be yourself.
(00:13:45):
And so when I heard back from the students and they would talk to me afterwards, I decided this is something that maybe I should try to do again, to maybe inspire other people to be themselves, be brave, and know that there's a place for them no matter who they are, where they come from.
Leah Roseman (00:14:08):
But in the show you do now you incorporate dance and music with your story.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:14:15):
And I just talk about my journey from learning drums. The gentleman named Brother R who taught me drums, how that propelled me to something, to playing in the jazz band and the concert band. I talk about people that I met in junior high school and how our perception of people sometimes is a reflection and of the things we're afraid to do, and how as I got older, I became really good friends with a person that I didn't like, and it was mainly because they were living, they were being themselves a hundred percent of the time, and I didn't know how to do that. And I labeled them as annoying or crazy too much or whatever, not realizing that I was afraid to do what they were doing. And so I felt I had to diminish that or put them down for it, and that connected with them because that's something that happens at that age, those teenage years and those college years, we're still trying to figure ourselves out and figure out how to be ourselves and those that have figured out something's wrong with them, that's the culture of that age.
(00:15:55):
And so that's part of the story I talk about overcoming, being growing up in the Projects and the things you have to do to get out of that and understand that the Projects is not one thing. I talk about how the majority of people in the Project that I knew were good working people and that we think that we are something we're always told, we're something that most of the times we're not that. Of course, every place has its bad parts. I don't care if it's Projects, I don't care if it's suburbia, I don't care if it's anywhere. There's always going to be a percentage of people that are bad or not positive or good or doing the right thing. And so the only place where it defines that culture or people is in the black communities and in the Projects. And it's not the truth.
(00:17:11):
Some of the most hardworking, honest people I grew up with, they didn't have much. But people think of the Project, they think everybody's a drug dealer. Everybody's steals, everybody's a criminal, and that's not the truth. So I talked to them about that, about dealing with that and how do you move through the world, not allowing that to affect you and hold you back from what you want to do. So it goes into a lot of different things, but some of the things that I think really hit home with a lot of people, the young people especially,
Leah Roseman (00:17:54):
Maybe we could talk your wife is a well-known
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:17:59):
Yes
Leah Roseman (00:17:59):
Broadway star, Jennie Harney-Fleming. And you met on the set of Pearl, right?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:18:05):
Yes. There was a musical called Pearl Bailey. It was written by Charles Murray, CB Murray, and it was directed by Jenny's father, a Tony Award winning Ben Harney. And the wardrobe was done by her mother, Olive Harney. The stage manager was her sister, Amaris Harney, and her niece and nephews were the stage hands and stage managers. So I walked into a situation where I was surrounded by her family, and so I never going into the situation even before I knew that I never had any idea of us dating or anything like that. It's just something that kind of happened later. And we didn't start dating until after the show, but we really got to know each other on that show.
Leah Roseman (00:19:15):
And she was in Hamilton for seven years, right?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:19:20):
She just left. So we can do this new show together, A Wonderful World.
Leah Roseman (00:19:26):
And meanwhile, you have a couple of small children.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:19:30):
Yes. We have a 4-year-old and a soon to be 3-year-old in November.
Leah Roseman (00:19:36):
Well, I asked because my husband and I brought up a couple of girls, and I know it's very hard when you're in the performing arts and you have small children. I mean, your schedule alone, it's
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:19:46):
Hard. It is hard. It is hard. Thankfully, we found some really good babysitters and they love them. They've been with us for a couple years. You just make sure you find the time, and that's the most important part as a performer, you're a business person, you're your own manager, you're your own PR person, you're everything. And so it's easy to slip into whenever I have free time, there's something that you have to do for your career. Like you said, it is really hard to make sure that you shut everything off and just spend time with your kids because easily you can jump on your phone and answer email or return a text or do whatever instead of just, Nope, sit here and we're going to talk and play. So we are very adamant about making sure we do that. Thankfully, the girls understand so far that sometimes mommy and daddy aren't home, but we know that that will change as they change often. So we're just trying to be prepared for it as much as we can.
Leah Roseman (00:21:07):
Yeah, it's almost easier before they're in school, I think as performers, because you're working at night, so sometimes you can spend time with them in the day depending on your schedule, right?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:21:16):
Yeah. Well, they're in preschool now, but we get the mornings. We get the mornings, and we haven't started our shows yet. So thankfully we still have our evenings, but we're trying to figure that out. What we're going to do once we have our shows, since our schedule will be set, we're trying to figure out how to make sure we have those set times as a family.
Leah Roseman (00:21:44):
Yeah, well, but you don't take it for granted, right? There's that too.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:21:50):
No. Yeah. You can't take anything for granted. You have to appreciate and really dive in and really take everything that you have in front of you and appreciate it as much as you can.
Leah Roseman (00:22:09):
Yeah. Now the show you're doing is a tribute to Louis Armstrong.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:22:16):
Yes, yes. The show is, it's about Louis Armstrong. It's about his life, and it actually shines light on his four wives that most people don't know about and how they were very integral parts to his life, and they actually kind of framed the different pivotal and very important parts of his life as a person and as a musician and his career. So it's really interesting how each wife, they have a chapter and that chapter, the chapter of his life that is all four, are very different. The wives are very different, but also the chapters of his life were very different because of where he was in his career, where he was trying to go. And it's very cool and interesting to see how those wives really affected those chapters in his life and actually propelled him to be the man and the musician that he was.
Leah Roseman (00:23:26):
Oh, sounds really interesting. I'm curious, DeWitt, in your role as a choreographer, I imagine most of the time you're working with expert dancers, but have you been placed in a situation where they weren't professional dancers and you had to get them to look good?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:23:43):
Oh man, it's so funny. We were just talking about this. Everyone thinks that when you get to a certain level, everything is easier and you have everything you want at your fingertips. And it is not the case. I'm about to quote Biggie "more money, more problems". So there's more money in Broadway, but there's more issues because whenever you have more money, the stakes are higher and there are more people that you have to please and more people that have a say and more people that want things. I say that to say the compromises are bigger. I was lucky enough this time to get about four good tap dancers that have pretty good feet, but when we first started, I was told I would only get two. And you might say, well, how does that work? Well, these same dancers have to be able to act. They have to be able to sing, and they have to do these things at a high level, and they also have to do the other styles of dance that are in the show. And so everything is always a compromise, trying to get the best people that are going to be able to do the job.
(00:25:13):
So there are always times where people are not at the level that you would like your dance to be, and that's how good you are at your job, the artistry, and how do you still convey the message? How do you put up excellent work? Not only entertain your audience, but educate your audience with whoever is given to you? And everyone has to look just about the same. It's easier when you have people that are willing and people that are passionate about what they do. And I am very adamant about, I can make anybody look good with tap dancing, and I could teach anybody how to tap in five minutes.
(00:26:12):
I say that all the time because it is endless. It's a cultural thing. And Buster Brown used to say, if you could tap dance, you can walk. I mean, if you can walk, you can tap dance. And it's true. It's very true. So yeah, I mean, it happens, but you have to be really strong and adamant and really have a passion for what you do and a passion for people and trying to understand people and encourage and inspire them, and things become easier once you take that pressure off thinking it has something to do with you. Once you look at the bigger picture of things, things become a lot easier.
Leah Roseman (00:26:56):
I'm curious, you went to college for acting. How did that training help you as a dancer and a musician?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:27:07):
I am so thankful that I trained as an actor first and not a dancer or a musician. And the reason why I say that is because actors have to research and look and have to fit in a bigger picture, and they have to understand how to put together a story.
(00:27:30):
And you have to understand the human condition. You have to understand psychology. You have to understand intention, you have to be a good listener. All these things have really helped me, especially as a musician and especially as a dancer, because you're not really taught those things all the time, especially as a dancer. As a dancer, a lot of times you're taught to imitate, to do what you're being shown. You're taught maybe certain colors, certain feelings, but I don't see a lot of dance. So yeah, I'm so thankful that I studied acting first because it really grounds you into finding the truth, finding the truth, and understanding human beings in order to be able to connect with them better. And that's so important in all the arts, but I don't think all the arts get equal training in that.
Leah Roseman (00:28:52):
Yeah, that's super interesting. I was thinking I didn't talk to you before, but I really always like to share music if I can. As part of these episodes, since about musicians, you put out a great album in 2020 Sax & Taps with Erica von Kleist.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:29:09):
Ah. Thanks. Yeah,
Leah Roseman (00:29:13):
And actually, there's a couple of video clips from on YouTube. I was thinking maybe we could use Doxy because for those people watching, they could see a little bit, and then those people listening will hear how you integrate the tap with the sax.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:29:29):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Leah Roseman (00:29:31):
You’re about to hear a clip from “Doxy” highlighting DeWitt’s tap dancing with saxophonist Erica von Kleist; Sax & Taps’ album Intersplosion! is linked in the show notes of this podcast along with this video which was recorded live at The Red Room in 2017
(00:32:28):
Hi, just a quick break from the episode.You may be also interested in my episodes with J. Walter Hawkes, Vahn Black, Mike Essoudry, Destiny Muhammad, EmmoLei Sankofa, Kellylee Evans and so many others. It’s a joy to be able to bring these meaningful conversations to you, but this project costs me quite a bit of money and lots of time; please support this series through either my merchandise store or on my Ko-fi page; you’ll find the links in the show notes. For the merch, it features a unique design by artist Steffi Kelly and you can browse clothes, phone cases, notebooks, water bottles and more. You’ll also find the links to sign up for my newsletter where you’ll get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Please check out my back catalogue, with weekly episodes going back to 2021. Now back to DeWitt Fleming Jr.!
Leah Roseman (00:33:15):
I don't know if there's other things you want to share to show your drumming. I mean, there's amazing one minute clip you put up of you just with the bucket. It's just phenomenal.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:33:26):
Thanks. Yeah, I got to put up more drumming stuff. I mean, I was really blessed with the opportunity to go to Tokyo in December with The Hot Sardines and play drums, and we did about a week worth of shows at Blue Note in Tokyo, and it was probably one of the most stressful things I've ever done because I was going back and forth between drums and Tap. Again, coming from the theater training, you want to keep the audience their attention, and you never want to drop that attention. You want to keep that thread going and keep them engaged the entire time. So I was stressed about how to transition from the drums to tap without taking them out of the experience. And so it was very stressful. And also just making sure that I was at the top of my game on the drums. Tap, I knew I had and the drums, but I wanted to just make sure I was as the best as I could be because I'm playing with some great musicians. And so I was really shedding and training and going over the music and making sure that's the last thing I want is for them also to have a bad experience. I wasn't on top of my game, so it was a little stressful, but we did it and we had a good gig.
Leah Roseman (00:35:14):
What did you think of Japan, was it your first time there?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:35:17):
First time, yes. First time. I loved it. I want to go back. I mean, it was just amazing, just, yeah, I can't say enough about Japan. I really loved it.
Leah Roseman (00:35:29):
Are there specific memories about the trip or anything?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:35:34):
Yeah, I mean, the first thing, because my wife Jennie went with me, and the first thing we were like, it's so quiet. I mean, imagine New York with all the people, all the same crowd, everything, but it was quiet. Nobody's honking their horn all crazy. You're in the subways and it's packed. Nobody's yelling, nobody's talking loud on their phone. And that was one of the first things we noticed. We were like, this is surreal. Everybody's just going about their business in a peaceful way. And the food, of course was amazing. Different museums, we went to some museums. Yeah, Japan was great. The people, the culture, like I said, just how things in their society, you can tell they really took time to really figure out what would help people's lives be better. And I thought that was really cool.
Leah Roseman (00:36:38):
I'm going there on tour in May for the first time, and I'm really looking forward to it.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:36:43):
Oh, you're going to love it. Going to love it. Yeah.
Leah Roseman (00:36:47):
Now you've been on tour with Cirque du Soleil was one of your gigs.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:36:52):
Yep. Yes, yes. Man, that was crazy. So my buddy and I, Jared Grimes, about 2003, I had just graduated college, and we had started the show called Broadway Underground with Cheryl Cutlip. And Cheryl approached Jared because he had done some workshops for her project dance, and she said, well, I have access to this space. We should do a show. And so Jared came to me and we created this idea called Broadway Underground, and the whole idea was to give a platform for performers. It was something that we did at Marymount, something called the Soldier of Hip Hop started by this girl named Michelle Seabreeze. And we started that because it was a small community of people of color at Marymount, and we, at that time, colorblind casting and all that stuff wasn't really a big thing back then. So a lot of these shows we didn't have access to.
(00:38:01):
And so we didn't get to perform as much as we would like to, or some of us didn't get to perform at all. So Shelly created this program called The Soldiers of Hip Hop to give the people of color in the school a platform to perform on, whether it be dance, spoken word, hip hop, singing, whatever. And so Jared and I were really inspired by that, and we wanted to do it our way, which was hosting, and we loved doing comedy and little skits and things like that, and we wanted to figure out how to make it the same thing without it being just a variety show. And so we came up with our own way of everything had a theme, so it was like a little mini musical, if you will. We had singers, dancers, and then David Shiner from comedian actor famous clown, came to see our show with Bill Irwin.
(00:39:09):
They were really excited about the show. And so they went and told Cirque about it because they were working with Cirque a lot at the time. David Scheer told Cirque, Hey, I want to create a show based around this energy and what this is, but I want to do it in a circus clown way. So fast forward 2008 or something like that, they approached Jared about it because Jared did all the choreography in the show. And so they said, Jared, we want you to come and choreograph and try to help us recreate what y'all do here at Broadway Underground. And so that's kind of how that came about. Jared was the choreographer I performed in the show. We went up to Montreal for four or five months and built the show with David Shiner. Bill Irwin would come in and help and do some things.
(00:40:13):
And yeah, unfortunately the show didn't go too well because that was their first attempt to do theater, a proscenium style show. And Cirque was so big at the time that unfortunately they weren't willing to take advice from people who weren't as big as they were. I'll put it that way. Unfortunately, the New York market and New York theater scene is very smart, and there's a culture there, and if you try to come in and not respect the culture or even try to embrace the culture, you're not going to do too well. And I think that's anywhere. Whenever you go into someone else's home, you want to kind of see how they do things first, get comfortable with that, and then try to push the envelope. You can't just come in and just start doing your own thing. So I say all that to say the show didn't work too well, and I think that's why.
Leah Roseman (00:41:38):
Well, that must have been disappointing.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:41:38):
It was a great experience. We had fun.
Leah Roseman (00:41:40):
Yeah,
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:41:41):
It was, but we all knew it because we kept trying to, they did the right thing by getting all musical theater and theater people, but they didn't listen to us, and we kept telling them, you can't do that. That's not how theater works. And they were like, we've been doing this. And we was like, okay, alright, you spending all this money, okay, you got it. You're right. And so unfortunately, it just didn't read, it, didn't read the way they wanted it to, because proscenium and theater shows are different from circus shows. There's certain things and certain ways you do stuff to engage your audience, it's not the same. So I think ultimately, I think that's why that show failed. But for us, it was a great experience. It was a great experience.
Leah Roseman (00:42:37):
I mean, we always learn from everything, even when it's maybe the failure.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:42:43):
Absolutely. Even more.
Leah Roseman (00:42:44):
Yeah.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:42:46):
Oh, absolutely.
Leah Roseman (00:42:47):
Yeah. When I was looking at all your projects, it was overwhelming. There's things I was going to ask you about, but are there experiences maybe you want to highlight that have been special memories or where you really got to learn a lot?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:43:06):
Oh yeah. I mean, my favorite memory, and I tell everybody, anytime anybody asks me, it's always Wynton Marsalis.
(00:43:12):
And the reason why I say that is because the first book my mom got me when I joined jazz band was Jazz for Young People by Wynton Marsalis. And so he immediately came like this figure in my mind, and then moving to New York and finally getting to meet him and the way I met him, which was a very humbling experience. I went to go see a show with my same buddy, Jared. We snuck backstage, we saw him coming down the hallway. We said, Hey, we're tap dancers. He said, show me what you got. We started dancing. He pulled out his horn, started jamming backstage with him.
Leah Roseman (00:43:55):
No way.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:43:56):
And the rest. Yeah, yeah, the rest is history. I mean, after that, he said, take my number. I took his number, talk to him about two weeks later, told us to come over to rehearsal, bring your shoes, we're on Rose Hall, the stage at Rose Hall, jamming with the band. And he said, cool. I think we'll do that in tonight's show. And just like that, I was on stage at Rose Hall, thousands of people with Wynton Marsalis and the orchestra. So I mean, it's an amazing story for me because it just shows the humanity that he has and the excellence. It's like being as popular as he is, being a celebrity that he is, all the stuff he does, he took time for us.
(00:44:57):
I mean, this guy is one of the busiest people I know. Whenever I see him, he's always got a stack of papers and he's writing music, he's writing orchestras, he is writing symphonies, and he is doing everything. And he is helping run the business. He's managing a band, he's doing all these things, but he still has time to connect with people, and he still has time to try to pull somebody up and give them experience they might not have, or to educate or teach somebody. And that says a lot, man. There's no one that plays like him and does the thing he does, that he does. And yet he still finds time people, people do half of what he does and say they don't have time for people or to connect with people or to be social or humanity. And this guy is always busy. It is not a minute of his day, but he still finds time to connect with people. And that's something so powerful that has always stuck with me.
Leah Roseman (00:46:08):
And you guys had the confidence to, and I'm sure you approached him the right way. You probably just had the right way of talking to him without
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:46:20):
Yeah. Well, yeah, because we were kind of lucky to, because we didn't know that with his connection with Julliard, if you look like a student, they would let you backstage. They would assume that you were from Julliard. Things have changed. Now, that was a long time ago, but they assumed that we were Julliard students. And when we went to the stage door and said, we want to go backstage, they just let us in. And we are so naive, we're just thinking, oh, alright, we're cool. Not realizing the whole situation. And when we saw him, we were just so excited about the concert he just did. It was amazing. And so we were just like, wow, that was amazing. Nice to meet you. We're tap dancers. We love jazz. And then he just said, show me what you got. But that's how he was. If you say hi to him, he's walking up to you. He's not standing there waiting for you to come to him. You say hi, he's walking up to you. I mean, that's just how he was. He makes everybody feel comfortable.
Leah Roseman (00:47:38):
So there's a video on YouTube of you dancing at Lincoln Center with Wynton Marsalis band. Is it from that performance or is it at a different one?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:47:48):
No, that performance, I don't think that was taped. It's only, this is more recent. It might be a couple of, I don't, oh, so no. So that was the second time we did that concert. And that concert was the one that he did with animals. And we were sitting in his apartment and he is going through this music and he goes, man, I've been wanting to do this concert. And I wrote this whole movement of music for Savion. But then he disappeared on,
(00:48:25):
So he said, I played this years ago. It's been sitting here. I want to do this music. And so he said, I want to play it for y'all. And then he played it for us, and he was like, y'all think y'all could do this? And this one's called Frog, this one's called Chicken. And then this one's called, yeah, I can't remember the other ones, but it was a movement with different animals. He said, now this music's tricky now. And we said, well just play it. He played it and we were like, yeah, we could do something. So he said, all right, well look, I'm going to send this to y'all. We're going to get in the studio and let's make something. Let's do this. I've been wanting to do this music. And I said, all right, cool. Let's do it. Me and Jared, we go in, we rehearse some things, put some things together, and the original one was just me, Jared, and went in the orchestra and we went through from animal to animal, and he talked in between, he does to educate and give people the reference of everything. And he was saying how instruments, the whole thing was how instruments really mimic sounds of animals and of nature and how they move and how they speak and the different tones and pitches and things that they do. That was the concert, but that was a long time ago. So the one you are talking about that you saw was, I think the third time that concert was done, and that was maybe about six years, seven years ago or something like that, five or six years ago.
Leah Roseman (00:50:09):
What I'll do to it, I'll share that link in the show notes to that video on YouTube and people can click on it because it's great. It's like you're right across the stage and it's great
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:50:20):
Yeah. Oh, thank you.
Leah Roseman (00:50:24):
And when I saw that, I was also thinking Tap dancers, often you're on a box or there's a tradition of that, and depending on the context, and actually during the pandemic even you filmed some stuff in your apartment. Here I am doing my thing and this tiny space, but you can create so much texture and shape. It's amazing.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:50:49):
Yeah, it's years and years of messing around and trying to express yourself. But also, I got to give a shout out to Capezio. They sponsor me with the tap shoes. And the reason why is because I've tried a bunch of different shoes. There's no shoe that I know that gives the tone, the different tones and options of tones that Capezio does. So I really got to really give it to them. It's like a fine tuned drum because I've tried other shoes and it is just the different textures and tones I can get with those shoes. It really gives you a nice surface to really be able to play with and try and try different things. But it takes a lot of technique. A lot of years, not easy. People say, oh, I want some shoes like that. And I give it to 'em and they'd be like, it don't sound the same. I say, well, doing this a long time.
Leah Roseman (00:51:57):
Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about the teaching and mentoring you do. I know you do workshops. I'm not sure how regularly you work with younger people.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:52:08):
Yeah. Whenever I get a chance, I'm always connecting with different organizations in different places because that's why I'm here. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for people coming to share their experiences, share their arts. So whenever I hear of anybody doing anything or organization, I just reach out and say, Hey, I'm available. Let's work something out. I would love to come and talk to the kids or teach. And I started teaching. My first year in college is when my school, Duke Ellington School of Arts down in DC, asked me to come back and teach their summer program. And so I started going back teaching, acting, and tap dancing. And then I just kind of kept it up.
(00:53:11):
I think it's just so important to give back share with others. And theater really helps you to understand how important it is to be a servant and serve your community. And being able to teach and give insight is a great way to do that. And it really shows, also, theater shows the importance of just your presence. Just you being who you are, doing what you're doing, how that in itself inspires people. And you don't realize it until somebody comes up to you after the show and says something to you. And I used to work with New Jersey Tap Dance Ensemble, and Ms. Deborah Mitchell, who founded it, an artistic director, before we would go on every show, she would always say, there's one person that you're about to change their lives or their life. And she said, don't take that for granted. So you got to go out there and do the best and do the best for them, because for me, that one person was me. There was a show or shows that did that for me. So I always hear that in the back of my head whenever I perform or do something. It's true. It's true. You really do change lives,
Leah Roseman (00:54:49):
And that must help when you're doing things like a Broadway show. So many times the same show.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:54:55):
Yeah, absolutely. It does. But theater is alive. It is moving, it's changing. It's ever evolving. We're humans. So there's no way we could feel the same way today that we're going to feel tomorrow, the day after. And so once you know that, it's exciting to be able to find the new things that are going to happen that day. And like you said, when there is something that maybe when you need that extra kick or push to get through the day, knowing that there's somebody out there or a few people out there who this is really going to change their lives, their life, it definitely does inspire you. It pushes you, and it reminds you that you're there for a service. You're serving a community, you're serving a people. It's not about you. And when it becomes about you, you got to go. You got to quit because something ain't right.
Leah Roseman (00:56:10):
I was thinking about the connection between dance, theater, music, which we talked about in terms of two things. One is improvisation. You came out of it as a drummer, jazz drummer, huge. It's all about that. That must help you as an actor.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:56:28):
Yeah, it does. It does. I mean, it's rhythm. Like I say, everything is rhythm. If you're able to find that rhythm, I then you're really going to be successful at what you do. I can't think of any one thing that doesn't have a rhythm to it. And that's why people say, oh, I got in a rhythm. It is energy. You find that right stream of energy becomes a rhythm. So yeah, that has definitely helped with theater and everything. Life is music.
Leah Roseman (00:57:14):
And the other thing I was thinking about was memorization. So I'm always amazed with actors, how they can memorize all these lines. And then as a dancer, the sequence, it's all kind of related, but different, right?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:57:27):
Yeah. So I tell people, and I always tell when I teaching, acting your intentions, and you know what you want, the lines become second nature. So for example, I can have two or three pages to the untrained eye, it looks like they're not talking about anything. But once you read that scene, you say, oh, okay. So I want them to agree with me, agree with my idea, and they're not agreeing with my idea right now. And I realize that I'm not explaining it properly. So if that's the scene, the lines become easy because I already know what my intentions are, what I'm trying to do, what I want from the other person. So when I say, so, are you going to go do this thing with me? And they say No. And I say, why? And they say, well, I don't want to. Then I, oh, well, they don't want to. Okay, let me explain it again. So it just makes sense. Once you know why you're doing what you're doing, it just makes sense. It's like, oh, I would say that, or I could see why they would say that. So then the memorization is not so rigid. It's not mathematical necessarily.
(00:59:11):
It's more like a rhythm. It's more something that's natural that makes sense to you, and you're listening and you're responding. We do it all time. Again, theater. We're recreating human experiences. So once you understand what that experience is, you can relate to it. The lines become easy. You probably said it before yourself.
Leah Roseman (00:59:38):
There's another show you're involved with that might be interesting to reflect on was Riverdance?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (00:59:44):
Oh yeah. Good old river dance. I'm so thankful for Riverdance because I've traveled all over the world with Riverdance. I've been to about 30 something countries and a lot of those countries or because of Riverdance. Yeah, that was the first time I toured. No, that's a lie. That was the first time I toured for an extended period of time away from home overseas. So that is not a lie overseas with a multicultural company.
(01:00:23):
And so what that does to you, being in other countries with a lot of different people that speak different languages, and going from country to country to country to country, you're constantly learning. You're constantly adapting. You're constantly just listening, experiencing. And I thought it was wonderful because the Irish have their own way of saying things and talking and their own culture of how they do things. And you got the English dancers. They have their own culture and how they talk and what they think. And then you got the Russian dancers. And within the Russian dance troop, sometimes you got Georgian dancers. Sometimes you got Ukrainian dancers, sometimes you have Romanians. So that could be a mixed pot too.
(01:01:27):
And then you got your Spanish dancer, and then you got the band, and then you got your Australian dancers. So it was so cool to be in this environment and have conversations about things and all of us be on different pages, but figure out, but through the conversation, be able to understand each other and essentially live together on the road. I thought it was beautiful. And then within that, you're in China, you're in Germany, you're in Norway or whatever. And so now you got to learn that culture and language. You'll figure out how that stuff works too. So I mean, I enjoyed it. I thought it was cool. I love the show. It's just so much fun. The music is great. The dancers are great. Yeah, it was a great experience. I really loved it. I really did.
Leah Roseman (01:02:30):
And you also went on tour with Alicia Keys?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (01:02:35):
No, I don't know who said that. No, somebody said that. And then everybody's running with it. Everybody's like, oh, you went on tour? No, I did not. (Oh, let me plug this in for this guys.) So I perform with Alicia Keys at the Apollo in New York City. Someone reached out to me, I can't remember who it was, and they said, Alicia Keys wants to do a kind of twenties, thirties, speakeasy style show. And so they said, well, can you create a dance with a Nicholas's brother style dance with another dancer?
(01:03:27):
And I said, well, yeah, sure, no problem. So I ended up choreographing for something, Brian Davis, Mr. Taptastic. I ended up choreographing, calling him and choreographing something for her and her show, the opening of her show. And then we got there. It was almost the complete opposite. So it was like the night before the show, and we're at the Apollo in the audience trying to recreate this dance because it was a miscommunication. They wanted a speakeasy style show, but they wanted the dancers. The only thing about the Nicholas Brothers, they wanted it with the dancers, is that there was two guys. They just wanted two guys to dance, but they wanted it more modern. They wanted us to have the tux and tails and all that stuff, like the Nicholas Brothers, but they wanted it to be more modern and into what her music was. So that was interesting because I got there, had my whole routine, this what we going to do, and it was like, no, we thinking more. And I was like, okay, all right, here we go. Give us like 30 minutes. We'll be back. And then we go in the audience and make something up. I choreograph something else, put it together. The band. I said, can you play that again? They played the thing. Okay, cool. All right, we'll be back. And then we did the show. So it was fun, and she was great. She was amazing.
Leah Roseman (01:04:57):
Okay, that's really cool. I'm mindful of your time, and it's getting late, so we'll close this out. I'm just wondering to reflect on, I don't know, do you feel like there's enough music in your life just because of dance? Or if you could have the perfect balance, would you be playing more?
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (01:05:22):
Yes. The short answer is yes. There's so much I want to do. I'm learning to really just be invested in what I'm doing at the moment, because if not, I'll be going off in all different types of directions, which I still do, but I try to zero in. But yeah, I always want to play more. I mean, right over here, you can't see it. But I got my electronic drum set set up. I had my acoustic drums, and my wife said, you got to stop playing. So I got my electronic drum set. But I love music. I love music, and it's a part of my everyday life, and I would love to be playing drums more, but I also know that when I'm tap dancing, I'm drumming.
(01:06:27):
I'm keeping time. That's where my style comes from, is playing drums, keeping time. Also, what I love too about tap dancing is that like drums though, you don't need a drum. You don't need sticks. Tap dancing. You don't need tap shoes. Wherever I go, I can dance, get out some rhythms I might have in my head, same thing. I can drum on my legs. So the instruments are an extension of your vocabulary and your expression, but your expression starts with your body. So although I would like to more, I know that that doesn't limit me, if that makes sense.
Leah Roseman (01:07:16):
Yeah. Well, super inspiring meeting you today. Thanks so much for this.
DeWitt Fleming Jr. (01:07:20):
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. This was great.
Leah Roseman (01:07:25):
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at Leahroseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. Or you can browse the collection of merch with a very cool, unique and expressive design from artist Steffi Kelly with notebooks, mugs, shirts, phone cases and more. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. All the links are in the show notes. Have a wonderful week.
