Yale Strom Interview

Below is the transcript for my interview with Yale Strom in August 2024. The podcast and video are linked here with the show notes. I was honored to be able to record this wide-ranging interview with violinist Yale Strom, who is a leading ethnographer-artist of Klezmer music and history, and also has done many years of research among the Roma communities. He speaks to us about some of his many inspiring experiences during over 75 research expeditions to Central and Eastern Europe and the Balkans. To prepare for this episode, I read several of his books, including his 400 page The Book of Klezmer: The History, The Music, The Folklore, some of which we touched on during this conversation, and he also spoke about two of his upcoming books and other projects. Yale is an energetic and prolific creator; he’s also a filmmaker, photographer, educator, playwright and composer, and we spoke about many of his projects during this wide-ranging interview.  

Yale Strom (00:00:00):

And I want you to pull it out. And I said, oh, okay. And I went under the bed. Of course cow, we a lot of dust bring it out. And it was tied up with this old twine and I opened it. Disintegrated in the air. Hadn't probably been touched in 60, 70 years. Mind you, Osher's like 88, he's maybe close to 90 at this time. This is like 84, 85. And I look and I see music, I see sheet music, and I go and I said, holy shit, Osher! And he said to me, "Yithok, dos iz gevayn mein gig buch" This is my gig book. He used the word gig.

Leah Roseman (00:00:42):

Hi, you're listening to Conversations with Musicians, with Leah Roseman. This podcast strives to inspire you through the personal stories of a diversity of musicians with in-depth conversations and great music that reveal the depth and breadth to a life in music. I was honored to be able to record this wide ranging interview with violinist Yale Strom, who is the leading ethnographer artist of Klezmer music in history, and also has done many years of research among the Roma communities. He speaks to us about some of his many inspiring experiences during over 75 research expeditions to Central and Eastern Europe and the Balkans. To prepare for this episode, I read several of his books, including his 400 page, the Book of Klezmer: the History, the Music, the Folklore, some of which we touched on during this conversation. And he also spoke about two of his upcoming books and other projects.

(00:01:29):

Yale is an energetic and prolific creator. He's also a filmmaker, photographer, educator, playwright, and composer. Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on all the podcast platforms. And I've also linked the transcript to my website, leahroseman.com. The podcast theme music was commissioned from composer Nick Kold, and you can use the timestamps to navigate the episode. It's a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to you every week, and I do all the many jobs of research, production and publicity. You can support this independent podcast through both the unique collection of merchandise with an expressive design from artist Steffi Kelly, as well as through my Ko-fi page. This weekly podcast is in Season Four, and I send out an email newsletter where you can get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Have a look at the description of this episode where you'll find all the links. Now to Yale Strom.

(00:02:24):

Hi Yale, thanks so much for joining me here today.

Yale Strom (00:02:26):

It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Leah Roseman (00:02:29):

You're the second ethnomusicologist I've had on this series. The first was Verna Gillis, but you're very much a performer, and that's kind of what gave you the impetus to do this research.

Yale Strom (00:02:41):

Yes, performer, artist, when you do ethnomusicology, ethnographic research, so you do it and then you've compiled something. You can hold it in your hand, you can look at it and you can keep it for yourself. But what's the point? You want to share it with others because you're proud of it and you think it will enlighten people. And I could have gone the way where I did things more focused only for papers for universities and higher academic institutions, which is fine. But then my findings may be read by 500 people, maybe a thousand academics. But I wanted to reach literally millions of people. So I took the findings and I it, I used it in documentary filmmaking, books that I've written, plays that I've written, songs that I've written, and even in my photography exhibitions. So I work in all those forms, all those mediums. But it all comes stems, as you said, from the initial impetus to do the research.

Leah Roseman (00:03:52):

Well, I did read, here's a pile of your books.

Yale Strom (00:03:59):

Oh, wow.

Leah Roseman (00:04:00):

Yeah,

Yale Strom (00:04:01):

I appreciate that.

Leah Roseman (00:04:03):

So we'll be talking about some of that, but maybe it would be very interesting to start with, as we record this, a recent concert you did at a historic shul in Detroit. Do you want to speak to that project?

Yale Strom (00:04:16):

I'd love to. The original name of the shul is it was like a congregation Bais Aaron v'Isroel, Aaron Israel built approximately in 1931, 32 in Detroit, in the city of Detroit, in Detroit. And what it was is this was a very Jewish neighborhood, very East European Jewish neighborhood. And there was a group of Jews, many that had come from, well, it was Poland at the time. Today, it's Belarus, Southern Belarus, the town of Stolin, Davyd-Haradok, even Pinsk, Rubel, et cetera. And a number of those people were my relatives who came from Stolin, my Bobeh, my Alta Bobeh, my great-grandmother, several of my great aunts and uncles. Anyhow, so they were davening in different little, shtibelech, little shuls here and there. And finally they said, you know what? We have something in common. We come from the same region. We are speaking Yiddish, and we daven in the same way.

(00:05:24):

We were followers of the Stolin Karlin Chasidim, so let's build the shul. And they did. And so the shul was there from 32 to about 1960. After the shul opened between 32 and 46, there were two Stoliner Rebbes alive in the world. The rest sadly had perished in the Holocaust in Eastern Europe, particularly in and around Stolin, which today is Belarus. Anyhow, there were two brothers, Yankov and Yisroel. That's right. I'm just thinking now, Israel, I believe. Yes. Anyhow, Yankov was a little older one. But anyways, he sort of shared duties. He lived in Williamsburg. Long story short, Yankov says, wow, we have all these followers in Detroit, which attracted the East European Jewish immigrant. We know for sure what the automobile industry and making five bucks a day in 1915 was a lot of money, and it was a steady job. So my Zeida did that, my grandfather and other relatives.

(00:06:35):

Anyhow, so he said, oh, I'm going to visit them. I have to pay my respects, maybe get some tzedaka, some charity also do, maybe I need to rule on any kind of problems that might be financial or religious. So he would come once a year for one week after Pesach, and he would stay in my great-grandmother's home. My Bubba lived downstairs, this duplex, which was a great honor because he's a rabbi, keeps kosher, shomer Shabos, but it's also, he has to feel comfortable in the home. And he did feel comfortable. He knew her from the old country, and they spoke Yiddish. They were like friends. So anyhow, that gave a lot of merit to my family. He passes away in the home, 1946, they go quickly. They open a suitcase. They say, whoa, there's a shroud here means, and the brother says, yes, the shroud's there. Okay, guess what? Bury him where he passed away. So anyways, they do that and he's buried there. Long story short, I decided to do this concert to celebrate the East European Jewish community, particularly the Hasidic side and the African-American community that bought the church in 1972 and gospel music. And so we had Hallelujah in the house celebrating both cultures through gospel and Hasidic music.

Leah Roseman (00:07:52):

Beautiful. And so you did perform together, some of them.

Yale Strom (00:07:55):

Yes. Well, they performed. We performed, and at the end, I brought us all together for a song that I wrote called Never Doubt, sort of my try at creating, writing a gospel. What I was quite proud of is that I'm going to write a gospel tune, but being Jewish, I am not going to write about Mother Mary or even Jesus or Peter and Paul, whatever. I mean, I could, but it didn't seem appropriate. It just didn't move me. So I said, well, let me find some text. So I did a little research and I found this text written by Rabbi Azaria, El-Azar ben Azaria. He lived in the second century, well, yeah, about 200s, 3rd century I guess. And he was one of the writers of the Ethics of our Father Ethics of our Father. So I was reading and I saw something he wrote, and it really moved me.

(00:08:54):

So not taking his text, but the ideas and thoughts that it conjured. I wrote my own text and people were really quite, wow, this is really kind of cool. And the chorus, which everybody's saying, people in the audience, Blacks, Jews, everybody, was "Never doubt. I will shout the words of the Lord, give me strength." And so I used the word Lord and everyone got into it. So it was a lot of fun. It was very successful. I mean, I could have been 10 people, but it was sold out. People were turned away, and I was also raising money for the church they needed, it's a poor church, and there are many things that need fixing. So I was glad to be able to do that. They didn't take me serious for the first 10 months as I was working on this for several years.

(00:09:49):

But as we got into 2024, whatever, and finally one of the elders, he said, no, I know what you're doing Yale. And at the end, the last three weeks, he said, it's really happening. We're getting all these calls, the press, whatever. And I said, you should take it serious, because I'm also giving you money. I'm not taking penny from it. And I didn't ask you to pay for anything. You just take care of the gospel side of things. But all in all, I was really pleased. And then we did a family photo on the steps with all my relatives. I said, raise your hand if you're a first or 31st cousin. I have a lot of cousins. I would say one fifth of the audience was my mishpocheh.

Leah Roseman (00:10:34):

Beautiful.

Yale Strom (00:10:34):

Yeah.

Leah Roseman (00:10:43):

This is Oberek Palota, Klezmer music from Slovakia, from the album “Borsht with Bread, Brothers” with Yale Strom and Hot Pstromi. (music)

(00:10:43):

So you used the Yiddish term, Bale Kulturnik. Do you want to explain that?

Yale Strom (00:14:34):

Yeah, A master of culture, and I think I am, I'm sort of bragging, but I'll let others decide for themselves. But I have certainly worked in a lot of genres, different mediums, and I think successfully too mean I've been reviewed and I can take bad reviews with good reviews, obviously, I like when they're more positive, but I'm not thin skinned. I've been doing this for several decades, but people have come to me and say, wow, we look forward to your next book or your next recording, or your next documentary film. I learned a lot from you. I've moved you. I've been moved by you. Or I went to search for my roots because of you, or I became a klezmer because of you. And I'm talking about Jews and non Jews. So that feels good that I have swayed people to not only enjoy it passively, but maybe become active in that particular art form that moves them.

(00:15:35):

And so, yeah, I am a leader, like a teacher, but I thought it's cool to create that term because a bale kulturnik and one who is a master, one who leads people, whether it's singing in the synagogue or one who's just good at giving advice on various issues. So I think where I can speak with some authority is the areas that I have researched extensively still do. I don't rest on any laurels if I say I have any and still reading, and I learn from others. And so yeah, that's why I created that term in my book bale kulturnik.

Leah Roseman (00:16:18):

I think a great place for people to start is a Wandering Feast because it's full of inspiring and interesting stories. And each little maynse has a food, like a vegetarian recipe. And also music. I'm vegetarian too, and I really appreciated that. And lovely photos.

Yale Strom (00:16:37):

Thank you.

Leah Roseman (00:16:37):

So yeah, this is a really wonderful book. And it documents your very first trip, ethnographic trip. And you've been back to Eastern Europe, what? More than 60 times or something?

Yale Strom (00:16:48):

Oh, yes. Yeah. It's closing into probably seven or 80, but yes, right. I'm actually going there in 10 days.

Leah Roseman (00:16:56):

Yeah, like many people, my grandparents had immigrated from Eastern Europe. They were Yiddish speakers. My parents were Yiddish speakers. I didn't learn it as a kid, but I heard it. And as an adult, I've gone back and tried to learn some, but you're kind of unusual for this generation that you actually had good Yiddish and you were able to go to Europe and find people to speak it with across all these different countries.

Yale Strom (00:17:19):

Well, my Yiddish got better. I did hear a lot of Yiddish from my father, some from my mother. She had kind of a wide vocabulary. It was more from my dad and from my uncle's, aunts, great uncles and aunts, and my bubba, who I remember fondly, until she passed away when I was at my age of 16. But we would talk a lot when she would visit us. And so that helped. And then after the first trip, I said, I want to learn even more. I want to be able to read and write it, even if it's slow going when I write or read it. And so then I did seek out a course, and then I went to Columbia University to learn Yiddish more formally. But it did help. Yeah. And that helped open many a door, many memories. But I will tell you this, Leah correct, Leah,

(00:18:27):

I'll tell you Leah, that the tool that really helped me the most as an ethnographer, as an ethnomusicologist more than Yiddish was the tool, was the violin. I know that for a fact because I have been, and with other colleagues, PhDs and brilliant, wonderful people who did not get the same results as me. They did not play an instrument and not just any instrument, but I played the Jewish instrument. And yes, we're proud to say it. It was known the violin was known as the Jewish instrument up until the eve of World War II for a reason. Well, you can name, it wasn't like one or two yet. It was like, oh my God, I don't have enough fingers and toes to name all the virtuosos. Not just Jews that play violin, but who were known as the best and the best in the world. And so the violin was an instrument in Klezmer music. I mean, yes, the clarinet we know and the flutes and bass and hammer,tsimbal, but the violin, I mean, there's a reason if the Fiddler on the Roof, there's a reason that Chagall, Marc Chagall, made a character of the violinist. So that really was my tool. And luckily when I began it, eight years of age in the beautiful city of Detroit, little did I realize how it was going to be such a useful tool. Many years later,

Leah Roseman (00:19:47):

You must have had such a sense of urgency going there and meeting these Holocaust survivors.

Yale Strom (00:19:54):

Yes, the sense of urgency though came one once I got there. Here I'm in my early mid twenties, so yes, I'm a bright person. I have a couple BAs under my belt. I read, I think I'm fairly intelligent. I am politically aware. I kind of know what's going on in the world outside of then from Detroit, we moved to San Diego outside of my neighborhood of San Diego. But when I got there and I had studied, I had taken several Jewish studies. I had a minor in Jewish studies actually at San Diego State. So I studied and read a lot of biographies from Holocaust survivors. But when I got there, that's when it really hits you. First, you're seeing the life that they're living. Some was quite, well, some not because of poverty, some not because of the restrictions, was the East Block. Every country from Hungary to Bulgaria, to Poland, to Ukraine, to former Yugoslavia, there were different levels of restrictions and freedoms for every human.

(00:20:59):

But for Jews, now we're this minority and they know it. And so there were some other restrictions or other, they had to be more careful in certain ways, particularly at certain professions. They were still working and they weren't retired. But then I realized it. And you know what made me really realize it? I'll, I don't know if I write it in the Wandering Feast, but he's in the Wandering Feast. When I met Eli, the Shamus in Kosice, Kassa was known as Hungarians. And that was on something too. I'm learning from these Jews. I'm hearing him speak Hungarian hearing him speak Yiddish. So I'm thinking, well, the guy's not speaking any Slovak, no Czech Slovak or very little. And then I started telling him, he says, for all the Holocaust survivors, for sure, even for the Jews who weren't Yale, they never called me Yale. Rarely Yale. Yale. They, it's not, never heard of it. What's that mean? I said, no, no, you call me Yitzhok or Itzik. They said, ah, that we'll call you that we know. So that was Itzik or Yitzhok. He said, Yitzhok, my mother tongue's Yiddish, but our second mother tongue is Magyar, Hungarian. And then I start learning Austro-Hungarian. And this a strong culture of Hungarian. And they were very proud of it, still maintaining a Hungarian aspect of their culture in Slovak Eastern Slovakia on the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains. But I remember what he said to me. He said, yes, what you're doing is so important. I said, well, I appreciate it. Why do you think it's so important? He says, because you'll live a lot longer than me. I am in my golden years, my friends, my family. We have a couple more decades when we're gone, who is going to record these stories of us survivors, whether it's about how we survived, how we made life after World War II in Eastern Europe. I didn't go to Israel. I didn't go to England or New York like many people did. I'm still here.

(00:23:08):

And the songs you're recording, you'll play them. Other people will learn. So I know that you will pass this history on, and it's important. And then I realized, I said, wow, that was, I'm younger than I am now. And I'm thinking, wow, that's a heavy responsibility. But I realized the importance of what I was doing. And you said the word urgency because no one knows how long any of us have on earth. But I knew once people are hitting 80, 85, 90, maybe another decade, I hope even bis hundred zwanzig, we'd say, but we don't know. And their lives weren't easy. Eli, he was poor. I mean, yeah, lower middle class. Actually, I'm going to say he was poor. I went to his house. I gave him some money. He told me he got money from the joint, the shul people would help him, but he never, but you know what?

(00:24:08):

These people never said, oh, play me a sad song on the violin, Yale. They were very proud people. And they said, I've made my choices. I decided to stay here and I've made a life. And maybe I should have done this or should have done that. But this is why I am here. And you and I are talking today, and we're going to have a good time this week while you're here, and I'm going to show you around and I'm going to introduce you to people, and I'm going to tell you all the bubbeh maynses about him. This guy, one who does this, this one who's sleeping with that person, whatever. And that was fun too. He had a good sense of humor.

Leah Roseman (00:24:43):

And another one of your albums, the Devil's Brides, you talk about the context of each musical selection with Miriam Margolyes.

Yale Strom (00:24:50):

Yes, Miriam, a wonderful actress. We know her. She's done many things, but she's kind of well known to people who follow Harry Potter. I forgot she played Mrs. Something. She had a reoccurring role. Yes, by the way. So here's another art form. I, along with my wife, Elizabeth Schwartz and another fellow wonderful writer, Ellen Kushner, we co-wrote and I did the music for an audio drama. People can download it and go to audible.com or wherever you find your audio. Got many. It actually won awards. We wrote the Witches of Lublin starring Tovah Feldshuh, in fact, the Broadway star and many other fine actresses. And that story real quick is from a simple little fact that we got together and he said, we should do something together. And I said, what about this? We said something Jewish, whatever, but what? And women oriented.

(00:25:49):

And I said, yeah, women, why not? We should women oriented Jewish. I said, there's a little known fact that most people never talk know about that in the 17th century, there were these big fairs. One was Leipzig, and I can't remember the other one offhand. It's written in my book of Klezmer, where Jews from the outlying little rural areas, you'd come once a year for a week long. Then people came from hundreds of miles, first of all, to see people exchange letters, how are you, how's family, how you been good also to sell all kinds of stuff. And at these fairs, I found in the archives, women klezmer bands, women, all women playing Jewish music, they felt safe. There was lots of people and they would make money. So the Witches of the Lublin is based upon the little known fact that there were women Klezmers as early as the 17th century playing and doing some traveling. Anyhow, the person who helped produced this Sue Zizza says, why don't we do the soundtrack Yale? And she says, you think I can get Miriam Margolyes to give the explanations? So that's why it's the Devil's Dream. So it's all, it's the soundtrack from the Witches of Lublin, and we're very fortunate to have Miriam sort of narrating the songs. And there were just a quartet, right? Accordion, violin, bass vocals. Yeah, we're just a quartet.

Leah Roseman (00:27:13):

Next, you're going to hear one of my favorite traditional Yiddish songs, Dire Gelt, which means Rent Money. This is from the album, the Devil's Brides with Yale Strom and Hot Pstrami Vocals with Elizabeth Schwartz. (music)

(00:31:10):

Now, I have not had a chance to see any of your documentaries. I've seen a few clips from the Last Klezmer about Leopold Kozlowski. Is there a place, I couldn't find a place to stream any of these?

Yale Strom (00:31:21):

Actually, I believe the Last Klezmer might be, I think someone put it up there without my permission. It might be on YouTube. Carpati is Carpati is on YouTube, C-A-R-P-A-T-I. And my other short film, I did a film called A Great Day in Eldridge Street, which I'm very proud of. That's because this momentous photo that I, a gathering of all some of the great Yiddish singers and Klezmer musicians, there was the Great Day in Harlem Photo, and that's where I got the idea. It is not an original idea, but it was original in the sense for doing it for Klezmers.

(00:32:03):

And what perfect place, the Lower East Side, when we think of Hollywood starting uses the Lower East Side, even Canada will often use the Lower East Side, the birthplace of East European Jewish culture, Yiddish culture, Yiddish Theater. And so I put it on the steps of the Eldridge Street Synagogue, which at one time they were going to close, and then they had just refurbished and rebuilt it. They said, no, no, this is too important. This is important for all cultures that we can't just let this building go by the wayside and put up some condos. And so that film, if you do a great day, the other ones, yes, I'll let you know. Here's the thing. I do have distributors for my newer films, which is not Jewish, but I'm very proud of an American Socialist, the Life of Times of Eugene Victor Debs First Run Features. People can get that. You can go to an app, Pandora, Amazon, Apple tv, but my Jewish ones the Man from Munkasc that was made by Hungarian and British tv. But I can send Vimeos to you, but you're right, they're not, as

Leah Roseman (00:33:23):

For my listeners too, if people are interested,

Yale Strom (00:33:26):

Yeah, have 'em come to me, but if they're interested, yeah, if they're interested in the Debs film, First Run Features, go to them. Or you'll just put it in and you'll say, oh yeah, for 10 bucks I can watch the film and sit back and it's won awards. And Amy Madigan, the actresses is the narrator, the Man, no, L'chaim Comrad Stalin about Birobidzhan. That's distributed by Cinema Guild. I have several films. Everybody listening, Cinema Guild, they're in Brooklyn that you can find, write them, say, Hey, and they'll do that. If not, then you'll come to me and I'll send you a Vimeo for a small charge. Now someone will say, oh, charge not free. Next time you go to your doctor's office for a little checkup, say, Hey, is it free today? Meaning I always get tired of people thinking that art should be free, even if it's 10 years old or 20 years old.

(00:34:24):

Why my dentist doesn't even fix my filling for free and I don't expect them to. And so I take it doesn't mean it's the same price when it first came out, but I expect people to pay for art because it's important. And you can see, I get serious about that because it pisses me off when people say, oh, Yale, it's been out there 20 years. Okay, go to your doctor. Oh, you've been a doctor for 40 years. You can't give me a break and fix my broken arm for free today. And the doctor would say, you know what? I think you need fixing, but your brain needs fixing, dude. You got to go to another doctor. So that's why I'm saying that to people. And so when I send it to you, there'll be a small charge because my art isn't for free.

Leah Roseman (00:35:09):

Yeah. I did want to ask about the Leopold Kozlowski story. So he lived to a hundred.

Yale Strom (00:35:15):

Yes, he a hundred in three months.

(00:35:18):

Yeah, he did. Well, I met Leopold 1981, and I wouldn't have not met him if Yurgy Kichler, who now lives in Wrocław , formerly known by the Jews as Breslau. I had told me, you got to meet this guy. You're interested in Jewish music, Yiddish, go see this guy. And I met him, and right away I knew, wow, this guy has something to teach me. And then when I returned, actually for my first documentary film, he's a short snippet in it. And when people saw that, that's called At the Crossroads Jewish Life in Eastern Europe today, narrated by Peter McNichol of he's well known. If people don't know him, he was the other male lead in Sophie's Choice. But anyhow, when people said, oh, who's that guy? You got to make a film about him. And then that's when I got the idea. I say, oh, wow, he's so powerful on the screen. And I decided to make the full feature of him, The last Klezmer. Leopold came from this, well-known Brandwein family. Now, Naftule Brandwein recorded here in the United States, came here, lived to about 1963. Great. Considered one of the two greatest of the Klezmer clarinettists, Dave Tarras, Ukrainian Romanian style, and Naftule Brandwein, I guess you could call it the Polish Ukrainian style.

(00:36:46):

And I knew Naftule Brandwein, he says, that's my uncle. I said, well, can you tell me? But he says, no, you got to tell me. Because he left before I was one years old, and maybe we got a letter once a year. I know very little, except when I read in America. So I told him what I could, but he told me all about his family and everything. And he was generous with the time, though. He was not interested in the film at first. No, no, no documentary, no cameras. I said, well, we're going to take you back to Lemberg, Lvov and then go to Przemyślany where you're born. No, no. I said, okay, well, Leopold Poljo is sort of his nickname. I said, okay. And I said, A very nice, he walked out the room and he walked down this hallway and I said, okay, well, Orrin and I, the cameraman and the sound guy, we're going, we've paid for it. Well, we'll talk to neighbors. We'll get some B roll, whatever, but we're going, okay. And he walked down and he turned the corner of the hallway. But I figured this guy had already known him for a couple of years, and he came back, okay, I will go. I'll do you the favor. But it's very emotional for me, which I didn't poo-poo because he was going back to his hometown first time in 50 years where he lost all his family, where he lived the Holocaust.

(00:38:10):

But it was a wonderful time. And I think about all the outtakes here. The film is 90 minutes, but I didn't shoot 90 minutes. And you don't shoot a film in the can. I think I had 20 hours. So one day that will go to archives. It's very valuable. In fact, now that we're talking about it, it kind makes me want to look at some of the outtakes and see it. But if people get, there is a DVD out there, and I put another 20 minutes at the end, like the directors cut. In other words, the stuff never put in that I thought was really good. But he was a character and my film brought attention to him. And then of course, he took from there and he took the title. It was funny, I called it The Last Klezmer. So when the Revival of Jewish Life is coming back to Kazimierz Krakow in the late eighties and the nineties, he took the title. He said, the Last Klezmer, Leopold Kozlowski,, the Last Klezmer. He got it from me. And people who saw the film came to see him. He became sort of a tourist attraction in Krakow, particularly during the Krakow Jewish Festival, which we just finished a couple weeks ago. But I was happy for him, and he'll always be a great memory, and I feel proud of that film.

Leah Roseman (00:39:33):

Now, even on your first trip, I believe you met with some Rom musicians.

Yale Strom (00:39:38):

Absolutely. And of course, growing up in California and Detroit and reading books and seeing movies, we called them like everybody else did. Gypsies with a capital G, though it was always, I say, how do you, a proper noun? Would you spell a small j for Jew? You'd get your 10th grade grammar teacher would write you up. But no, not with a g, small g. Even in papers like the New York Times, which bugs me, and I've written many that have gotten better now and a lot because of me, because they say, oh, okay, yeah, we are sorry, the Roma Romani, Jewish, Rom, Jews. What was interesting is in certain regions, as I traversed was looking in northern Pennsylvania, the Carpathian Mountains, Bessarabia Moldova, the country, Moldavia the province, northeastern Romania. There I would meet Jews who would say, I remember a few tunes, but if you really want to know some tunes who still play, I can sing you, yeah, Yitchak, I'll sing you a tune, but you want to hear a fiddler or tsimbal player? I said, absolutely. He says, they remember. And I said, oh. And then whoa, how come? Oh, how did they learn? He said, what do you mean? How come they learned?

(00:40:57):

They often would play in Jewish bands or they would be the band. We didn't have a Jewish band. And they learned Jewish music. A lot of them were good musicians, and they played. So my first lesson, here I am, I get to Kishinev, right , Chișinău they say in Romania, Kishinev, Moldova, and I meet a Refusenik, the Liederman family. And so these were Russian Jews, Soviet Jews. It was the Soviet Union, who are being so watched and they can't do this, can't do that. But they can't do is they say, okay, don't like me, let me out. Nope, we refuse. So they weren't allowed visas, and she was a classical pianist and teacher of music. Anyhow, went to the home, and she knew about my interest in klezmer. So she said, I have a friend coming over who comes over. I see this short squat little guy named Nikolai Radu, who she explains to me is Romani, a Roma gentleman. And he just gets to the piano. The first thing he kind doffs his head, and I remember, like five foot four husky guy. And his finger was like, sausages and how's this guy? Wow, fat fingers. At least every one was two of mine. And he went down, he goes, Yitchok, gib a kik, gib a kik (Yiddish for have a look)

(00:42:24):

Romanish (singing) Magyarish, Hungarish, Russish. And every eight bars, he changed. It was the same melody, but he showed me the different styles. And so I asked him, Nikolai, wow, you're Yiddish is better than mine. That's beautiful. Why do you speak Yiddish? Why not? First of all, which is a good answer. But he says, I'll tell you why. I was the only non-Jew in this band that I played with for years. We traveled all over the Soviet Union, we played this and that weddings chasenehs. And he said, simchas, this and that, but, when it was time to be paid, want to make sure I understood everything with a wink, a little humor, but also some truth. So I met Jews who spoke fluent Romani. They played in Romani bands. I met Roma who spoke fluent Yiddish. And so that also got me interested, not just in the music then, but also their lives, which I could see discriminated against often by the Gentile, the Goy, or as they say in Romani, the Gaje, the Gajo.

(00:43:37):

One Gaje, Gajo is the non-Roma people, though I was given a compliment by Roma, they said, you and us, the Jew and the Roma. And he went like this with his fingers, meaning we are, we've suffered. We went up the chimney flues of Auschwitz, we played in bands in many camps, and we came back after the war to resurrect whatever we could of life. And so they felt an affinity for the Jews. So yeah, so I became interested and I did, in fact, I'm was going to do something this week and you made me think of it. I'm going to post this is the 20th. 20th, 04, yeah. 04. No, 14th. 30th. Oh my God. 30th anniversary of probably the only book about the Roma where I spoke to the youth of all ages, and not just youth, but adults as well, called Uncertain Roads, Searching for the Gypsies where I photograph them and interview them. Say, what is life like now today, since it's no longer at the East block or things have changed, there's a political awakening in not just East Block. I went to Sweden as well to interview Roma, and I'm going to mention that book, and I'm very proud of it. And I have had exhibits. And so I became interested, not just focused only on the music, but their lives in general. And seeing that there are some positive things happening in the last 20 years. In fact, I was asked to go, I was asked by a major Romani organization in Berlin. They brought me and Barry Fisher, I have to mention his name because he's done a lot of pro bono work for the Roma. And he's a lawyer, a Jewish guy also plays Klezmer accordion in LA. We went together to talk about the building of a Holocaust memorial and what it should it be, where it should be. And I felt so honored. And sure enough, some years later, this memorial is there in Berlin to all the Roma people who lost their lives in the Holocaust. And I've learned a lot from them. And I've even kind of composed music like them. So it's become something, one of my passions and somewhat of an expert. I am asked, I mean, I don't know everything about them, but I know a lot about them. And I know the connection between the Jews and the Roma, the history and the music. And I know quite a bit about in certain regions, like I said, the Carpathian Mountains, and some of them, they know me when they see me, when I come back to the village. So it is a nice feeling.

Leah Roseman (00:46:27):

They had immigrated from India, what, 1500 years ago or something?

Yale Strom (00:46:33):

Yeah, actually probably the year, I guess that would be the 11th century, the year 1000. Yeah. They were forced though. It was not by choice. Warring tribes, Muslims, Mongols, various warring tribes. So back and forth. And so they were taken as prisoners instead of just leaving there and suddenly left. But why they took is because they worked in iron fire and fire was low caste. You worked in the caste system in India. Ooh, it's devil worship. But they worked. So they were good. What does a warring army need? They need someone who can work in iron because the caste, the weaponry, but also they were good horse people. They knew horses inside and out. They rode horses also, what do you need? Foreign warring army. You need your tank. Your tank is your horse. Shoeing, the horse feeding, taking care of. So those are some of the reasons, the music part as well, some aspect of it.

(00:47:31):

But it was those the more practical of working with iron and fire and horses. And then they stayed. You're there. And then I would joke with my friends, they said, have you ever thought about returning to India? Rajistan? Or Balochistan in Pakistan, what are you, nuts Yale? Forget it, I hardly that language is different or it's too hot, or it's too poor, or it's too Muslim, or nah. I mean, the ones I've talked to about, they said, I'm interested in returning for research or to meet people and see the correlations of our cultures and see how we've changed because of our thousand years now in Europe. But it's not that same connection as Jews would say, okay, I have an affinity and one day I'll go home. When it was Palestine to Palestine, and now of course Israel. But yeah, it's an very interesting group. And the stereotype of they're all great musicians. No, not every Jew who picks a violin up is a great violinist. Many are. And they know that. And they learn at a young age and they want to express it. And they also see it's a way to make money or get themselves out of the ghetto or to be accepted, whatever. And also, I want to say, because people say, oh, the Jews, were there ever stereotypes, come on, do I walk on water as a Jew? No, people have stereotypes. Sometimes there's a little kernel of truth about it. There were Jews had stereotypes about Roma negative ones. They talked about, oh, dirty thieves, this can't trust, but women forget about it. And Roma, who talked about the Jews, oh, penny pinchers, all they care about is money. Oh, they'll cheat you. But most knew that was BS fostered often by the gaje, the goy, the Gentile, the outsider. And the Jew, the Roma particularly musician, said, we are not listening to that mishigas, that craziness. We like each other and we're going to play music together. We have a good time. And we treat each other with dignity. That's why I've also focused a lot of my ethnographic research over the last 20, 30 years. Also among the Roma people,

Leah Roseman (00:49:46):

Some of the stuff that came up in the books, interesting to me. The community of Klezmers, they had a language, they had vocabulary that was only between them.

Yale Strom (00:49:57):

Klezmer loshn, klezmer language. So there's about, and in my Book of Klezmer, which might be one of the books you have there,

(00:50:05):

I'm very proud. It's the only time, it's the only book published of all the Klezmer vocabulary in one book. Now, I didn't make this up. I had to go to do the research. So it was Yiddish research, and it was a lot of hard research finding from in both former Soviet Union and then in archives, YIVO and just libraries that somehow had this manuscripts. And so real quick, why did Klezmer slang? Okay, everybody, you get that slang. We have slang. Different professions have slang. Musicians have slang, jazz slang. I use the word gig. Gig today is ubiquitous. Gig comes from the jazz guys. Tomorrow I'll see, I'll meet you at the grocery tomorrow, nine at the downbeat, nine sharp downbeat. I'm not talking about playing music. The downbeat is, that's one on the downbeat. We hit it and you don't miss it because if you miss it, you're out of time, out of rhythm.

(00:51:02):

So there's words we used today, expressions in English that come from jazz. So the Klezmer musicians had created a language. First of all, why? So you have the insider. I can speak about you, the outsider. And I'm at a wedding. I'm playing. We're playing. It's great. We're having a good time. I see beautiful women. Of course men, it was men, yes, women who are listening to this, yes, Jewish men, sexist, sexual thoughts. If you're heterosexual or maybe not. If you're gay, you'll look at the man in the room with sexual thoughts. Doesn't matter. Who cares. But yes. So they have terms that they could say, Ooh, what a beautiful woman. Oh, what a beautiful figure. Oh, what nice breasts. Yes, those are the words in this Klezmer loshn. But also was about money, about food, about instruments, about their lives. So they can speak among themselves.

(00:51:54):

So that when they went to a Gentile, when they were traveling in a town and they're hanging out at a tavern, they could speak among themselves and the Christians wouldn't understand them. They can be nosy, busy bodies because they might say, well, speak Yiddish. A lot of Christians the goyim spoke Yiddish. They heard Yiddish. They picked it up just like a Jews spoke Polish or Belarussian or Ukrainian. They and I speak Yiddish. What that? The Gentile Pole or Transylvanian Romanian can't speak Yiddish. If he's in a town, he's learning Yiddish. He's going to learn Yiddish. And many of them picked up enough that they understood. But the Klezmer loshn was the secret language. And I will say, so it's not Yiddish. You'll hear words basically say no. But I learned a couple that I did not find in any of the archives that had been written from the 1890s to 1920, the archival academic research.

(00:52:51):

And I was taught by Leopold. He taught me a few. And I looked in all, I said, wow, here's a few. Because they were forgotten. And so that was kind of fun. And there's a few times, I've used a couple, I've used the words in Yiddish songs. I've written a few times, but here's one, this makes sense. So they would use the word wurstl. Wurstl comes the word wurst. Wurstl, what is wurstl? It's a liver wurst or some kind of wurst, W-U-R-S-T, some kind of meat, like a liver wurst. So they said a wurstl. Why? Because the clarinet is long and skinny. So they would say, Host du gebrenk dein wurstl?, of course, they would say, did you bring your wurstl? Of course, the guy said, what? I'm coming to the gig. Am I a dummy. Of course I brought my clarinet. I'm here to get paid. But anyhow, some were more obvious.

(00:53:50):

Others, oh, my name Strom. They would say, strom, strom. And I said, what the hell is strom? It meant three. So if you said stromstromstrom, that was nine. And so that mean at nine tonight, when do we finish stromstromstrom? You didn't say nine a zeger. You said it's three plus three plus three. I don't know. And there's others. I have to look at it. I don't have in front of me. I couldn't get it too here. But you'll see it there. There's a couple other things with strom that would be Shin Tet Resh, Aleph Mem Sofit, which though in Yiddish, because it's a Yiddish word, but it's not three in Yiddish, it means stream. Geyen kegen strom, my wife wrote, which is Go against the stream, is my motto. People say, let's go right now. I say, let's go left. So it means stream or also a current of electricity. But for the klezmer cats, for some reason, they decided to make it the number three.

Leah Roseman (00:54:58):

And I found it wonderful to read how they would support each other in times of illness or if there's a widow that the better off musicians who were getting more gigs would help some of the other guys.

Yale Strom (00:55:08):

Yes, Mondays often, I mean in different cities. Let's say in Iași, I know this, for example, they had their own shul, their own synagogue. It was anyone could go there, but it was their dues. They felt comfortable. They would go, they would, like you said, they'd hang out, play checkers or chess and eat, talk about the week, what gigs we have on Mondays when they didn't have a gig, that was like their day off. And they did, they said, oh, so-and-So Sloman passed away. He's got a wife and six kids, so we have to support her until she gets on her feet more or whatever, where the oldest starts to work. And they did that, and it was good. They cared. It was a benevolent society. And it because also, it's a very unique club. It's a special club. First of all, to be a Jewish musician, you have to know your instrument.

(00:56:00):

Now, were there musicians who played not so well? Yes, I was told, I even met some musicians. Oh yeah, I'll play for Yale. I'm like, I was always polite. But I think, oh man, I don't think it's because of his age. I just don't think he ever was a great player. But it's okay. But it's a unique club because often if you were traveling, even if it was just for a day gig out, you travel together to be a full-time musician was very difficult. There were a few, speaking of Leopold, his family, they could just only be musicians. They were wanted by everybody. He bragged about it. They played for Kaiser Franz Joseph, who was the last big Kaiser of the Austro-Hungarian Empire before he passed away. So most had day gigs, day work, and then they would meet in the evening. But nothing unlike other, the Tishlers, the people who were woodworkers, they had their camaraderie.

(00:56:59):

And you have camaraderie because you already have something in common. You're doing something for labor to make a living. But you also, you're good at it and you like it, and you see the pros and cons of it. So when you have another insider, it's easy to talk to someone. If I'm a violist, but I'm talking to someone who's a bricklayer, we could talk about, oh, it's tiring, this and that. But he doesn't understand me that well about playing the violin. And I certainly don't know a lot about bricklaying. So yeah, so they had that camaraderie and they often, as you said, I'm glad you brought that up, took care of each other. Because listen, many of these were Orthodox Jews and these were guys who walked the walk instead of talk the talk. And what is Torah? Let's just cut to the chase. I don't care how much Talmud, how much Torah, how much Rashi, what is a Jew?

(00:57:49):

What is Torah? Be kind to the other be kind, extend a helping hand to the fellow Jew, to the fellow human, whether Jewish or not. And the rest is commentary. And so they practice it. How can I forget about Shalom's wife now? Well, she'll manage. I'm not making that much. What? I'm going to take 30, 30% less on this gig to help her. Nah, no, no, that's not the Jewish way. We're all family particularly, and she's still part of the Klezmer mishpocheh family. We have to help her. So these were cats. These were musicians that walked the walk. They davened if they learned Torah, Talmud. You can learn all the minutia, the dos and the don'ts, the laws and this the customs. But it means nothing if you're not good to your fellow human. And so they practice that. So that's something to be very proud of as a fellow Klezmer musician.

Leah Roseman (00:58:46):

There's a manuscript, I think it's the Weinstein manuscript. You met him in Brooklyn in the early eighties, and he taught you a lost Tish Nigun. Do you want to talk about that?

Yale Strom (00:58:59):

Yes, Osher Weinstein. That book, I think the title, I think we came up with my wife. It is going to be called The Lost Stoliner Geniza, or the Stoliner Geniza, the Lost Stoliner Manuscript. That's what it's going to be called. It's coming out next year, folks. Next fall. Next fall being published by the same publisher who published my biography on Dave Tarras Ortav O-R-T-A-V. Anyhow, yes. So I have this Stoliner yichus, which I'm very proud of. And my uncle said to me, my Uncle Harold, olav ha-shalom he's passed on a couple years ago, he kept a lot of the Stolin tradition. He was the one who as a kid, was pounding nails in that Stolin synagogue, which is now a church. Anyhow, he says, you're going to NYU Yale, go down to Borough Park, go meet the Stoliners. Go meet the Piltchiks, the two rabbis, the twins, the Rosh Yeshiva.

(00:59:57):

You got to go. They'll remember me. Uncle Harold, look. And what you see now, Leah people, if you're seeing this, I haven't changed. This is pretty much what I wear. I wear shorts all the time. I mean winter, I wear long pants. Don't define a man by his clothes because I'm very simple dressed. Ich ben a chasid. Nu, when you go down there in front of the Yeshiva Shul and they come out, just say who your bubbe was, give her name and who your alta bubble was, your great-grandmother. And you'll see, really? I went down there, they looked at me. Who are you? Well, my name's Yale Strom. Yeah, I'm originally from, oh, Detroit. Oh yeah. My grandmother was Dora Weiner. Dora Hoberman Weiner. Well, she came. Dora Strom married my Zeida, and her mother was Chava Hoberman friends with Chava Hoberman, you mean where Reb Yankov the Rebbe, the Stoliner Rebbe died in her home, oh! The red carpet. And I got a personal, within an hour meeting with the Rebbe then who's still living in Borough Park, Reb Baruch Shoychet is his name.

(01:01:14):

And anyhow, they said, so I got to know them and I would occasionally visit 'em. I was going to school, I had to make money. I was busking in the subways to make money. NYU was not cheap. I got a little scholarship, mostly not, my parents weren't paying for it. They didn't have the extra money, because I'm one of eight kids and I lived in Astoria and if you know Queens Astoria, Borough Park, it's an hour and a half schlep. So I wasn't going to do it every day, once every week. Finally, they introduced me, said, oh, I became friends with these two chasids, really nice guys. And they said, we know a Jewish musician was a klezmer. We want to introduce you. Oh, great. I go and I meet Osher. I become friends with Osher. About twice a month, I would go and visit him.

(01:01:58):

I'd spend the afternoon, three to six, three to seven maybe. Basically just talking. I play a little music sometimes. He had me go to the pharmacy to fill his prescription and then bring it home. And after several months he said, Yitchak, go my bed. There's an old box there and I want you to pull it out. And I said, oh, okay. And I went under the bed. Of course, cobwebs a lot of dust and bring out this box quite about a foot and a half wide on each side. Bring it out. And it was tied with this old twine, and I open it, disintegrated in the air. Hadn't probably been touched in 60, 70 years. Mind you, Osher is 88, he's maybe close to 90 at this time. This is like 84, 85.

(01:02:53):

And I look, I see music, I see sheet music. And I said, holy shit, Osher. And he said to me, "Ya, Yiztchok. And he said, "Dos is geveyn mine gig buch". This was my gig book. He used the word gig. I loved it. And anyhow, long story short, we looked through the music. He talks to me about the gigs, the simchas he played for the Rebbe, then the Stoliner Rebbe was living in Stolin and the others, but also for the Jews, non-Jews, religious, non-religious. Anyhow, finally he says, my two friends who brought me there, he said, I gave them the manuscript. They're making one copy for you, Yitzchok. And this, the original is going in the archives of the Rebbe, of course, of re moves to 95, moves to Israel. And invariably, as people know when they move across country or from country, you sometimes lose something.

(01:03:58):

And they lost part of their archives including this. So I'm the only one in the world that has the Xerox, not the original yellowed paper of all these tunes, there were some 96 tunes that he played, some with his name on it, others that transcribed that he learned from another, a guy named Vadim who might've been Jewish, maybe not, but he was Usher, certainly was. And this book's going to come. There'll be a history chapter, but I'm very proud. Some will say, oh, I know this tune or others, but I want to say, just before I stop here, here's the interesting thing. People say, oh, he was a chasid, this. Was it all nigunim? Was it all freylachs and scotchnes? Vast majority, yes, but not all. I found a tune called Havana. I found Schubert's very famous serenade. I found a piece called Autumn Song by Tchaikovsky. I found the piece called The Poet and the Poet and the Peasant by, what's his name, Von Suppé. Was it Franz Suppé ? What's my point? They were playing popular classical news. That was the pop music of the day.

(01:05:18):

Payes, chasid, shomer shabbos, certainly didn't stop them playing for pop music, meaning these cats, these musicians had a wide range. They, first of all, good music's good music. They liked it. The melody, it moves me in my heart. But they also were smart. They said, listen, we're playing for wealthy Jews. We're playing for wealthy Gentiles, and they want some of the, they don't want just Nigun after Nigun and Freylach, 1, 2, 3. Okay, that's fine. No, they also want some of the waltz's. They want to do some ballroom dancing, or they just want to hear the beautiful Serenade by Schubert and just sit back and enjoy it because it's a damn good piece. That's why I still played today in 2024, all over the world. That was interesting. That's going to show a lot of people, particularly Klezmer researchers, and people say, oh, Klezmer this. No, they only play chasidic, BS, Uhuh.

(01:06:11):

These guys had a wider range, and in some ways, perhaps those Chasidim then a hundred years ago, actually, were more open to a wider range of music than the Chasidic Chasidim today that I've played at these parties. That all it is a Chasidic music, a lot of it very modern, a lot of it very repetitive, a lot of it not very good. I'm going to say it's just boring music. Some of it good, but some of it not. But not playing Schubert's Serenade or Von Suppé's, Peasant and the Poet. And they'd say, oh, we would never play that. That's Goyish really funny how the Stolin Karlin Chasidim in 1906, between 1921, because that's what was stated, this manuscript 1906, 1920, they seem to have no problem playing these tunes for everybody, including the Jews.

Leah Roseman (01:07:02):

Very interesting. Hi, just a quick break from the episode. If you’re interested in Klezmer you should listen my episodes with Alicia Svigals, Polina Shepherd, Josh “Socalled” Dolgin, and Marilyn Lerner. It’s a joy to be able to bring these meaningful conversations to you, but this project costs me quite a bit of money and lots of time; please support this series through either my merchandise store or on my Ko-fi page; you’ll find the links in the show notes. For the merch, it features a unique design by artist Steffi Kelly. You’ll also find the links to sign up for my newsletter where you’ll get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Please check out my back catalogue, with weekly episodes going back to 2021. Now back to Yale Strom!

(01:07:02):

You mentioned busking in New York as a young man, you do play many different styles of music too.

Yale Strom (01:07:49):

Yes, I play some Bluegrass and fiddle music, Appalachian fiddle music, of course, some Romani music, Classical. I still play some classical music. That's what I initially started. Balkan music. I love Balkan music, Sephardic music, north African Music. I love the Middle Eastern scales, Arabic scales. And I a lot of my own music. I do a lot of composing and I enjoy it. And I've composed, some of it is more Jewish K sounding. Others, there's some jazz elements. It classical elements, Turkish, middle Eastern elements to it, I've written in seven or 11 or 13. Those are rhythmic time signatures that kms never really played in, if ever, because that's more of the Middle Eastern and the Balkan region, though the kms from Romania who would go down to Istanbul Constantinople is when they would go down and back and forth. I met some, they said, no, no, we heard it and we learned that. But you wouldn't find usually the Polish or the East Hungarian because they weren't being influenced so much by the odd meter. That's the odd meter. But yeah, I enjoy playing. I like to challenge myself. That's the word. I don't want it to become, oh, I'm just going to do another, I'm just going to write another freylich or play.(singing)That's a freylach I"ve played at every Jewish wedding since the revival of Klezmer in the last 30 years. It's a wonderful tune. But if that's all I ever played, I would get bored. I guess that's one thing I can get bored easily. So maybe that's why I've been working in all these genres. I am always constantly, what's over the next horizon. In fact, my wife says to me, she says, Yale just put out a book. He just published it, or the doc just opened it up and he went to the opening. So people say, oh, so is he basking in the applause and the praise? No, he's back in his office working on the next book, in the next film. And so as I've gotten older, I said, no, no, let me enjoy it for a little bit. But I'm kind of that way and I am relentless, what's the word? I have relentless energy to see what's, I can push myself to new heights.

(01:10:27):

And for me, that's the fun of it. It's like a cook. You may be great at 30 dishes. Are you only going to do those 30 dishes forever? No. Cook says, no. Maybe I've been cooking Jewish all my life. I think I'm going to cook. Albanian. What? Albanian. Okay, I just said that. Folks. I don't know. I actually do. It's influenced by the Southern Kosovo and Southern Serbia, a lot of the Bureks and Turkish. But still, I think that's what makes me, if I can say a good or better than average artist, is I'm seeking out other artists, listening, looking, viewing, watching, reading and saying, huh, that gives me an idea. How can I incorporate the stuff? I feel confident, and I'm constantly doing that.

Leah Roseman (01:11:19):

So Yale, I wanted to ask you about your life as a composer. You've also composed some sort of classical crossover music.

Yale Strom (01:11:25):

I have, and I've been very honored by certain musician, Rachel Barton Pine. She said Yale write me an encore piece, so it could be played for just solo. I wrote a three movement piece based upon Hungarian, Romani, Romanian, and Jewish motifs. It's called Bessarabian Suite. She played it, but the Israeli Philharmonic,I was in other places around the world. I was commissioned by a group called Art of Elan. They're here in San Diego, but they do all kinds of classical music. The Hausmann String Quartet and the soloist, because it's a string quartet, was Sara Caswell playing both classical but also improvising in a classical way. And the theme was, no, the theme was home. So I wrote a three movement piece called Detroit First Movement is called Anishinaabe. It's about the Indigenous who were there before anybody was there. Then the second movement is called Hasting Street, where the East European Jews lived in city of Detroit, and the third one was called Black Bottom, the African-Americans.It's not called Black Bottom, by the way. They were Black. No, it was the French gave it that name, whatever. It's French because of that really rich black earth there. I've written string. Oh, Bordeaux. The Bordeaux Philharmonic commissioned me, and I wrote a violin. They brought me there commemorating. Sadly, when the children and Jewish children on Bordeaux were sent to the camps, I composed a cello violin piece. So yeah, string quartets. I've composed several. It's a challenge for me, and it's a great, and I feel so humble to hear a great body of a great orchestra or a great musicians play it. And so it's a different side of me. Again, it's the challenge part again. So I enjoy writing for my band and other Klezmer ensembles, but I enjoy writing for large ensembles as well, because it just makes me study more and learn more, and I think I have something to say musically.

(01:13:30):

And so far, the people who have played it said, wow, this is good Yale. And I said, great, but better than that, the audience is clapping. Some even sing Encore. So I sit there quietly. Oh, and one last thing. That's right, I wrote a choral piece, full body choral, men and women, all the ranges and sextet string quartet, plus contra bass and classical guitar. It's called, it's a three movement. No, it's a four movement piece called, and the theme was Metamorphosis. Of course, during Covid, that could be anything change. So I did some research, read articles and that, some books, so I wrote, the title is called Uncle Albert, because I read some Camus, uncle Albert and Brother Franz, because I read some Kafka. And so some of their, I'm quoting a little bit of them. I'm also quoting Native American, Jewish Indian as an East Asian. So that's a piece, and I'm hoping to record that professionally, but next year with a choral group. So for any people who are in choirs out there, a serious piece of music, Uncle Albert and Brother Franz.

Leah Roseman (01:14:51):

That's wonderful. It strikes me, you're one of these people that had you been more focused in one area, you wouldn't have been as happy in your life.

Yale Strom (01:15:03):

I was just thinking that the other day, and someone said, Yale, what if you had just focused, you would've done so much more in classical or books. I said, I don't know. I wouldn't have been happy. I am happy doing many things. First of all, I meet different people, different artists who are good at that. I like challenging myself. My wife will say this, and people will say, if Yale had been diagnosed, maybe I was. I definitely have ADD, yeah, I talk fast. I have a lot of energy. I put it to use though. I put that hyperness or whatever, but okay, I can focus. People say, oh, he can't. Of course, if I couldn't focus, I would've written one book and that's it. I would be starting everything and never finishing. But no, I can focus. But I have that energy and I have that gangbusters because it brings me pleasure.

(01:15:56):

I guess that's it. I feel so happy when I'm doing it. And then of course, the extra happiness is to see smiles or people like you. I mean, to see someone have all my friend who's, he's an accordion player down here. He's Hungarian ethnic from Toledo. Toledo, this, not Toledo, Toledo, Ohio. He just sent me a quick thing, I dunno. He says, yeah, look what I saw in the Toledo Public Library. He pulled it out. It was the Book of Klezmer that makes me feel great that my books, there's nothing Jewish but the Toledo Public Library. It's a public library. Anyone could go do it and take out, but they bought it and it's been used. He said he saw the pages bent. So yeah, I would've not been as happy if I had just focused only on one thing. And I teach people. Lastly, maybe I am a professor at San Diego State University.

(01:16:49):

I was teaching at NYU. I only came. I love New York City. My wife's from New York. I love the energy and all that. What brought me to San Diego, something that some artists in Canada don't have to worry about is called health insurance. We don't have that national health insurance. And they offered me, they created a position, this I'm very proud of, the Jewish Studies Program of San Diego State created a position of Artist in Residence for me, and I was there for that for 16 years until it ended. And then I moved over to the music department. But I had only, somebody said, well, why don't you get your PhD and only teach? I said, no, I wouldn't have been as happy. So I'm the person who likes to go to smorgasbord. I like to try different food. I don't want to always go to the same deli.

Leah Roseman (01:18:08):

Yeah. You mentioned the Dave Tarras book, which I also read, the King of Klezmer. Yeah. It was interesting. So many interesting things in here. One of the things that struck me as a musician is that it came up that his idea, I guess, which was current, is that the band leader just always plays, has all the solos, just dominates. Which is kind of surprising.

Yale Strom (01:18:34):

Yes, yes, he did. Why? If you listen to the recordings

(01:18:39):

He's playing, which we can occasionally you hear a little bit what he did with his, I think it was his son-in-Law, Sam Musiker. You hear Sam playing the trumpet and stuff. But yeah, Dave was a blower. It's like, Hey, it's about me. I got a big ego, healthy ego, but he could back it up. He was, as we know, a virtuoso player when I was talking to his son and grateful to Sy, who has since passed on, who allowed me to, who gave me such information that no one else knew about. We knew about Dave snippets, whatever. But a lot of stuff that was just family stories and the photos and meeting. I mean, what I love is the Russian side, the Soviet Russian side that never came out that were there and stuff. And it's interesting, and photos, but also music that I said, Sy why didn't he publish? He said, he wrote these, or he remembered these transcribed, but he wasn't sure if the public was ready for them. I said, really? Yeah, he was very proud, man. He had a certain reputation and he came into a room and he expected everyone to say, oh, Dave Tarras, the King of Kings. The king of Klezmer.I said, but he says, but you have my permission. And we did a concert once playing a number of these tunes. They're not, some are easy, some aren't. If you look at the doinas that he transcribed, note for note. But that was a fun project, and I'm very proud because here Tarras has influenced several generations of other Klezmer musicians, clarinetists in particular, but just others. And I did the first biography on him. No one else had. They had snippets, but nothing in depth. But I saw him play, but I never met him personally. But I got to know of him quite well from his son and his daughter-in-law, who is still with us and other family members who spoke highly about who Dave, Dovdl as they called him. And of course, the story that's wonderful in you read it that I love so much, oh, because I got to interview. He was in the band, he was 16. He was the youngest in the band in like 54. And they're playing at one of the Catskill resort Jewish hotels like anyone. It's where you make, you got to go where the audience is. And lot went up during the summer. So he's playing and he's 16, and it was a good gig for him. And he's a great trumpet player. Shelly. Shelly Henler came to me, Shelly, who, by the way, people, he became like a PhD Scripps researcher before he passed away some years ago. He lived in La Jolla. That's where I interviewed him. And he told me about this, and he said, so I see these two African-American Black guys come in and Tarras says, yeah, oh, schving. Let's play. They're Black. They don't want to hear the freylachs, the doinas. They want to hear the Jewish swing.

(01:21:51):

And he starts to play something, whatever Henler had the chutpah, he's 16, Mr. Tarras. What? And he said, Mr. Tarras, never like, Hey, Dave, it's Mr. Tarras. Mr. Tarras. Yes, yes. Young man. They don't want to hear you play the swing. Honestly, you can't play it. Well, they came to hear the doinas the freylachs the Romanian stuff, because you kill it, and they want to hear that really? He does it. And of course, the punchline is the people here who were these two, African American, Charlie Parker and Miles Davis, they came to hear the great, so I guess Dave Tarras can say he was great because those, of course, they weren't alive. I wasn't playing. They didn't know me. But that level, they're not going to come hear Yale Strom. I mean, they came because he was fantastic on that, the licorice stick as it was also known. And Tarras was, of course, very proud of that moment. So it was a great story. Of course, the story was told by Shelly, but backed up also by Sy, his son

Leah Roseman (01:22:59):

In terms of violin playing. We talked earlier about the Jewish violin tradition. I found it interesting in your book of the History of Klezmer about how the klezmer violinists kind of influenced what we know as the Russian School of Violin playing using shoulder pads, more glissando and vibrato.

Yale Strom (01:23:17):

Yes. And we know that for a fact because the two major schools of what were sort of codifying classical, because the violin has been around since 1600s. But we had instruments like it that weren't violins. They were viols and so forth, but really 19th century. So you have the school in St. Petersburg, and you have school Odessa, and so you had Stoliarsky, and who was the other, I'm forgetting

Leah Roseman (01:23:48):

Auer.

Yale Strom (01:23:48):

Auer. Oh, thank you. Leopold Auer, right. So here, they both Jews both knew of Klezmer music, both came from a folk, but they also were codifying. They were creating, we're playing classical music. We're playing music for the Tsarist court and for other courts of all of Europe and wealthy fine people. This is fine refined music. And we have to look a certain way and play a certain way. And we're playing this music, and it's been written for us. And we have these great Russian composers as well as German, Viennese and others. And so yes, and so holding them. Yeah, because if you don't have today shoulder rest, but if you didn't have a pad, it is hard. What did that do? People might who don't know the violin, they say, well, what's the difference? You just hold it with your neck. Well, the truth is, yes, you are. You're holding it. My first lesson, very first day, the teacher taught me, I was eight years old, she was showed me, put your violin on your shoulder. Yeah, hold it tight. Hold it like this. I am holding it. And then she grabbed the end of the scroll and she pulled it up. Nope, improper. She pulled away from mine. You're not holding it strong enough. Your neck muscle and your shoulder, you have to hold it that I can't pull it. So what did Stoliarsky and Auer think. But what does that do? That is the left hand. You're using the muscle, okay, but it's straining it, and you're eliminating what it can do. Then you can only go up and down so much on the scroll with that tension because your tension, you're tense. So if you have something, a pad, or now today, what we call a shoulder rest, helping hold it gripping. So now you're, yes, you're still using the shoulder here on the neck, but less tense. And that allowed the classical violinist to show off, to go way up on the high E and stuff that they're really, so it's just fluid and be really going from the E down to the low G. And then of course, the Klezmer violinist. The gliassando was the What's that? That's the voice.(singing) Not just going, oh, but just the glissando singing. The folk musician said, I'm playing folk music. I'm going to copy what the vocals are doing. And they did a lot more glissandi and their fat vibrato, thick vibrato, because the Klezmers used vibrato. It was almost like a tight vibrato. Some of it was learned from the Roma, who I think also it came from their singing, which actually comes from the Indian style, the Indian language, and even Indian style of this, a very, very tight vibrato. I wouldn't even try to do it. I could do it more if I was playing the violin.

(01:26:42):

So you put these things together and you see how 19th century virtuosity, classical violin is now, this is what we are going to teach, and this is, we codify it. And this is how if you're going to play Western classical violin, meaning the great composers, this is how you should play. We're taking it from the folk realm, and you're a great musician, Mr. Folk violinist. But now we're a classical violist, and there's certain ways we hold the violin, certain ways for vibrato. When should vibrato not vibrato? Certain ways we move up and down the fingerboard and the Klezmer, the Jewish teachers, were very influential. I won't say were they the only, because no one can say only about anything in life, except I always say you, the doctor who's talking to about cancer. Then there's some onlys there, but only, no. But was it greatly, one of the great influential aspects of playing classical violin? Absolutely. And they happen to be Jewish, and they actually play classical music. So why wouldn't they take what they learned? But now how do we make it so we're going to, every violinist that comes and learns from me is going to learn the same way.

Leah Roseman (01:27:57):

And you met a student of Oistrach who said that he had taught him some Klezmer tunes,

Yale Strom (01:28:02):

David, that's his name. David Kamhi, K-A-M-H-I. In of all cities, you would think, oh, where in St. Petersburg? No, Sarajevo. He was Yugoslav or Bosnian, as we say today. His parents survivors, they survived. They were both taken to the island of Rab, the Italians, under the Italians. And luckily, the Italians weren't as despicable despotic as the German Nazis were. But anyhow, I went to meet them and they said, oh, you're interested in music and violin. You got to meet David. David. He came over and talked to me. You can even read about him on Google a little bit. I hope he's still around with us.

(01:28:55):

And he told me the story, yes, how his first teacher was a Klezmer violinist for a few weeks. And then they said, okay, he's got that down. Enough of that. Now we're going to go to the genre. Not that they were embarrassed or looked down. They knew the genre of music that was going to make him a living and give him the full respect. Folk musicians got respect. But let's be honest, a lot of people, we even say today, yes, he's a folk fiddler. He's an Appalachian fiddler, and I enjoyed it. Great. I paid, but oh, tomorrow I see Itzhak Perlman. All of a sudden, your voice changes. And Carnegie Hall, they're both violinists, one, they play different genres. But it was that connotation. Society does that for lots of sociological reasons, and that's why. And then so Oistrach went on to be great, and Igor is still with us. His son became great, and Oistrach was my mother's favorite classical virtuoso violinist. So I got to see Oistrach when I was like 13, 14 live, which was quite something.

Leah Roseman (01:30:05):

Yeah, one of your recent albums I enjoyed is the Broken Consort Shimmering Lights, and I believe it features Sara Caswell on there. I interviewed her recently for the podcast.

Yale Strom (01:30:17):

Yeah, Sarah, as a dear friend of mine, I got to meet her when I taught, I taught for 10 years at the Mark O'Connor Fiddle Strings Camp Mark O'Connor, one of the greatest virtuoso violinists of all styles, particularly fiddle, Appalachian, country music and jazz as well. So I met Sara, and she's such a sweetheart. First of all, she's just a lovely human, but man, can she play the hell out of that violin, jazz, blues, bluegrass, classical. Her classical is unbelievable. Anyhow, so I thought, let's do a string oriented, a string oriented, and I'm very proud of that because people do their Christmas album. So I said, well, I'm not going to do my Christmas album, but I'm going to do my Hanukkah album. And so we put Sephardic Ladino songs. My wife, shout out to my wife Elizabeth Schwartz, who's, if I may say, it was quite a wonderful singer, contralto.

(01:31:11):

So she sings in Ladino, she sings in Yiddish, sings in Hebrew, sings in English. And I even wrote a piece that's just instrumental, and I feel really proud of the Beshir Mizmor, where you hear Sara and myself. So there's two violins. We have bass, we have classical guitar, we have oud, one of the great oud players of the world, Amos Hoffman, Israeli. So I think what I really like is people can say, oh, Maoz Tzur, oh, I know that. And all of a sudden, oh, you don't know this one. And, Northern Moroccan. And so they'll know it, but most people don't. But also the improvisation aspect, because I like to do improvisation and let Sara, how can I not? She's one of the greatest. And almost all of them, and even Klezmer musicians improvised, they would do that, particularly in chasidic nigunim. They didn't always just play A, B, B, A, B, B for 30 minutes in a row. They would go off because also the singing, because where does the Klezmer, the Jewish musician, what was his greatest influence? People say, oh, that Gentile violinist or the hammer dulcimer, it was the singing in shul davening, the first and oldest instrument that we all play as all humans. The voice. And when you would hear the Cantor or the Baal Keriah, maybe you don't have a cantor, but the one who's leading the Torah reading or just regular dny, you would hear the melodies, but they would go off. They would sing long. And it never was exactly the same. So the musicians were hearing that and say, okay, he did a little slightly different, a little flat there in that particular few words. Let me try that on a violin or whatever. So anyhow, so that's what we brought to Shimmering Lights, and I'm very proud of it because we got really good reviews, and they're all professional musicians, of course. And we took some of the known tunes that people knew and said, well, they put a new spin on it, new dreydl spin on it. And so I hope people go out there, download, its available folks on all the music platforms. It's Yale Strom's, Broken Consort. I had to look that up. Shimmering Lights, Yale Strom's, Broken Consort. The consort is all strings, guitars, plectrum, string, Ooh, bass, viola. We had as well cello in there. So what breaks it? The voice.

(01:33:40):

And that was it. That was a Renaissance term. I had to do a little research. I didn't know it. I said, ah, a broken consort. So it's the consort of strings, but you broke it with a voice. So it's Yale Strom's Broken Consort. Oh, I would be honored, please. Yeah, thank you. But do put a little piece of Beshir Mizmor, because I'm really proud of that. This that's on the Shimmering Lights. It's classical Middle Eastern Jewish. It's like, whoa, where's it go? And Sara has one of the most amazing moments of improvisation that I've ever heard, any violins, and you'll hear it. You'll listen it today. It's like, whoa.

Leah Roseman (01:34:24):

You're about hear an excerpt from Beshir Mizmor, the Shimmering Lights album with Yales Strom's, Broken Consort.(music)

(01:34:31):

I just wanted to touch, you've written so many beautiful books, this book, the Expulsion of the Jews, which was the 500th anniversary. So you traveled extensively in a totally different culture in terms of the Sephardic Jews, which not every listener would even know that history. Do you want to speak to that briefly?

Yale Strom (01:36:55):

Sure. I had just was doing a little work there, and I went up to Ian Shapolsky, the publisher who owned it, and I said, I have this idea for a book. And I told them, I said, 1992 is going to be the 500th anniversary of the expulsion. Let me go interview photograph history. It might be one of kind. Who knows if someone else is doing it, we won't worry about them. But I already have a reputation. I had already done the last two of Eastern Europe, which got a New York Times review, which once you get that, that really sets a high bar. So that was good. So people knew me and he said, okay, Yale. So it was good. So I got a publisher to pay some of my expenses, I'm an artist and I'm living in New York City and things are expensive. And yes, I published a lot of books, but they're not selling millions.

(01:37:49):

Anyhow, so I went and in fact, I was in Spain. I was about to go to Morocco, and what happened? It was 1991 and was it one of the Intifadas or something? It was Israel, and sadly, the West Bank, the Gazans, there was war. And they were saying to Jews, they were saying to Americans, be careful if you're going to North Africa or to, and my friends, they said, yeah. I said, I'll be all right. Then I thought about it. I said, well, you know what? Maybe they know more than I do. So I went to Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Yugoslavia, which is interesting, and Bulgaria, and yeah, because it's in America, even in the, say in Canada as well, we tend to be East European Ashkenaz-centric. But there is that other beautiful, another side of the culture that was influenced by the Iberian culture, by the Moorish culture, by Romani culture, and then spread, because sadly, of the expulsion, and they went to North Africa, they went to the Benelux countries, but they also went to the Ottoman Empire for the most part.

(01:39:11):

And only recently, oh, real quick. So they went to Romania, and that was interesting. There are Sephardic Shuls in Romania, Bucharest because Romania, Eastern Europe, Romania, Romania, the great Lebedev singing Yiddish songs, but Romania, Balkans Black Sea had that influence too. So a lot of European, a lot of American Jews, Canadian Jews don't realize that, oh, really? There's Sephardic influence. There was actually a larger influence than we even realized. Anyhow, my wife only just found out her last name's, Elizabeth Schwartz, a writer. She said, look her up, folks. She just wrote a book called The Sweet Fragrance of Life that's in Yiddish and in English. Anyhow, Romanian, her dad, and so she sings and she sings in Romanian dialect, Yiddish dialect. That's simply all the oos are ees. So I say, A gut Shabbos, a git Shabbos, gut goes to git. Purim goes to Pirim, et cetera, et cetera. Anyhow, she just found out last year, she's Sephardic on her dad's side. A cousin of hers did the genealogy and everything, and at 1432, they expelled and they went to the Ottoman Empire and they went to Romania, which was under control, the Ottoman Turks.

(01:40:28):

Eventually, the last name was Schwartz, but it had been spelled S-F-A-R-T-I. Sfarti. What is Sfarti? Sefardi in Yiddish is a Sephardic yid, is a Sephardic Jew. But anyhow, so I guess in my family, I am married to also Sephardic Jew. But I was always curious and the music, here's the music part. People say, oh, it's different from Klezmer, some Sephardic Ladino. Very different. But it has the essence of what Jewish music is in terms of the scale. When you hear the Middle Eastern Sephardic music from Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, Bulgaria, parts of North Africa, they're playing the scales that we grew up in. I say these scales are older than the word Jew. They're older than the three Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Really? Yeah, they When more wandering ites, tribes, and these are the scales, this is the base of all Jewish music.

(01:41:41):

Did it change? Yes. In Eastern Europe, you're hearing folk melodies and Polkas is, and from Czech Republic or Poland in this and that, Romanian, you're hearing different things. You're influenced from the Roma people, and we're influenced from people, but the Middle Eastern music that the flamenco is based upon as well as the Jewish music, but it's the Middle Eastern scales. And so that scale that we play, that tonality, that to me, that's the basis of Klezmer. So here I was going more closer to the source than if I was going to Iași Romania or to Warsaw, Krakow or wherever I was doing research, so that musically, it made sense too to visit musicians and to hear and to see how I could imitate on the violin what they were playing on the tar, the three string Turkish instrument or the flutes, the kaval and various beautiful instruments. And for me, the Middle Eastern scales moved me more than the scale. Why? Because it's all the gray notes on the piano, Or as much as it, people say gray notes on the piano, I only have white keys and I have black keys. I say, well, that's good. If you didn't, you should turn in your piano. You got ripped off. It's all the microtones, right? It's all the quarter tones. It's the tunes that we can sing with our voice, because you and I Leah we can go. We don't have frets on our vocal chords, guitars. It's harder. Fretless guitar. Ooh, fretless. You can bend notes and it's like, whoa, what is that note? Is it B? Is it B flat? Is it B double flat? Whoa. It's somewhere in there. It's not on the piano. I can't play it. That's why I say to my piano players, Klezmer music on the piano, nah, chords. Of course, I'm joking. They're great pianists, but the truth is they can't bend the note unless they're maybe going inside and doing some prepared piano stuff. But fretless instruments can bass, cello, viola oud, and of course a singer. And so it was fun to do that book Expulsion of the Jews, 500 years of Exodus. Yeah.

Leah Roseman (01:44:05):

You've done so much and you continue to do so much. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you particularly want to draw attention to?

Yale Strom (01:44:13):

I will say this. I won't say much. I decided during the pandemic, like a lot of artists, when we're not traveling and stuff, I started to write historical novel, and I finished it, and it's going to be published next year, and I think the publisher is great. You can imagine it will be based upon a lot of experiences, but a lot of history. So I'm excited about that. Most of my stuff has been nonfiction though. Do you know about my Shlomo books?

Leah Roseman (01:44:46):

Yeah, I have them.

Yale Strom (01:44:47):

Oh, okay, good. I sold four. No, but people, what's that? They're for adults as well. Yes, they're kid oriented, but a good folk tale is a good folk tale.

(01:44:59):

What I'm proud about it is it's a folk tale based upon ethnographic research, based upon stories I heard from Jews and Roma, people in northeastern Romania, Shlomo, one about Purim and one about Hanukkah. So I'm working on a musical right now that we will be workshopping next summer at the Old Globe Theater in San Diego musical on the life of Bella and Marc Chagall. I've written original music for it, like 16 songs, and what I'm proud to say is, no, not everyone's a klezmer or Yiddish song because guess what? I would be bored. No, it's a musical. There'll be some Jewish flavored songs. Yes, and some that are, whoa, what is that? Sondheim or Gershwin or Bernstein. I'm not the big head. I'm saying those names, but just drawing from lots of different styles because of the story, and I wrote the lyrics too in English. One song that we do have in Yiddish, a lullaby, it would seemed very appropriate in the scene. So yeah, just go to my website and support artists like myself and others, and I'm so grateful that you gave me this opportunity knowing that you've done other wonderful artists, Sara, as well as others. It's is nice to be considered, and I hope, yeah, I keep planning on working on, I'm working on a doc. Oh, I'll just tell you real quick, and we have an audio drama coming by the same people who produce the Witches of Lublin.

(01:46:36):

This is my wife's book, the Sweet Fragrance of Life. It's called The Sweet Fragrance of Life, is the book. Three stories, the Yiddish actress, Yelena Shmulenson, I dunno if you know, she's actually done Hollywood. Wonderful. She reads the Yiddish Yiddish, and my wife, Elizabeth Schwartz does the English side of it, and I just finished this week, all the music cues and everything, and that will come out in October, audible.com or wherever one gets an audio drama that they listen to, because you might buy the book and say, oh, my Yiddish isn't that good, but I can follow and hear it, and it's wonderful stories because the genre is, Elizabeth calls the genre feminist shtetl horror. I'll just leave it at that. Folks got to get the book to see what that means to you.

Leah Roseman (01:47:30):

Well, thanks so much for this today.

Yale Strom (01:47:32):

Thank you, I really appreciate that and good questions. Thank you so much.

Leah Roseman (01:47:37):

I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at leiarosemond.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. Or you can browse the collection of merch with a very cool, unique and expressive design from artist Steffi Kelly with notebooks, mugs, shirts, phone cases and more. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. All the links are in the show notes. Have a wonderful week.