Edwin Barker Interview
Below is the transcript for my interview with bassist Edwin Barker. You’ll also find the link back to the podcast and video versions, with the show notes and other links.
Edwin Barker is recognized as one of the most gifted bassists on the American concert scene. In this wide-ranging interview, you’ll hear about how when he was still a student, he won a job with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and then at age 22, he was appointed to the position of Principal Bass of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, a position he has now held for nearly 50 years. He shared memories of his mentors, and his valuable perspectives on learning and teaching the bass, playing in orchestra, conductors, auditions, acoustics and more. We’re featuring his wonderful recent album of solo bass music, Basso Profundo, both J.S. Bach’s Suite no. 5 and Weinberg’s Sonata Op. 108.
Edwin Barker (00:00:00):
It was just an amazing experience. And people in the audience come up every once in a while. They'll come up and say, after a concert, they'll say, wow, I've never heard anything quite like that. I said, well, do you come often? And he said, well, no, this is my first time here, actually. And I said, well, where were you sitting? Well, they happen to have a really good seat out in the hall. And they said, it's a lot different than listening to it on a CD, isn't it? You don't get the same impact. Not at all. And yes, it's an honor to be able to have a career doing that stuff, all the things we could be doing with our lives. But I think it's a nice thing. It's an honest thing.
Leah Roseman (00:00:45):
Hi, you're listening to Conversations with musicians with Leah Roseman, which I hope inspires you through the personal stories of the diversity of musicians with in-depth conversations and great music that reveal the depth and breadth to a life in music. Edwin Barker is recognized as one of the most gifted bassists on the American concert scene. In this wide ranging interview, you'll hear about how when he was still a student, he won a job with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and then at age 22, he was appointed to the position of principal base of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, a position he's now held for nearly 50 years. He shared memories of his mentors and his valuable perspectives on learning and teaching the bass, playing in orchestra, auditions, conductors, acoustics and more. We're featuring his wonderful recent album of solo bass music, Basso Profundo, with both J.S. Bach's Suite number 5, and Weinberg's Sonata, Opus 1 0 8.
(00:01:40):
Please note you can use the timestamps to navigate the episode. You can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on all the podcast platforms, and I've also linked the transcript to my website, leahroseman.com. It's a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to you every week, and I do all the many jobs of research, production and publicity. This weekly podcast is in Season 5, and I send out an email newsletter where you can get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Have a look at the description of this episode where you'll find all the links.
(00:02:17):
Hi Ed, thanks so much for joining me here today.
Edwin Barker (00:02:19):
Well, hi Leah. It's very nice to be with you and very nice to meet you.
Leah Roseman (00:02:23):
So I understand when you started the bass, you thought it was going to be the bass drum. You were in fourth grade?
Edwin Barker (00:02:29):
Yes. Yes. Oftentimes, I think in the grand scheme of things, sometimes the instrument chooses us. For whatever reason in this case, I was very fortunate to have gone to elementary school that required all fourth graders to play a string instrument, and that was wonderful, except I didn't know what a bass was. The teacher there saw me sitting there and said, well, you're kind of tall and you have big hands. How would you like to play the bass? And at the time, I really, really wanted to play the drums. And so he said, well, how would you like to play the bass? And I said, yeah, sure. And I thought he meant bass drum. And so that's how it happened. And I went home and I told my mother, and I said, yeah, I'm going to play the bass. And it is one of those things where you stand up and you pluck the strings. And she said, well, did he give you a bow? And I said, a bow. What's a bow? I don't know what a bow is. That's basically how I got started. Were it not for that mandatory string program, I don't know that the bass would have chosen me in that instance. And then by the time I was sort of in fifth grade, I managed, my parents managed to get me a really fine string teacher. I was up in Plattsburgh, New York, that's where I was living. And there was this wonderful string teacher by the name of Angelo La Mariana, who taught all of the strings. He was essentially an upper string player, but he taught all string instruments. So he was a phenomenal teacher, very demanding, and I was fortunate to have had had his teaching at an early age. And it turned out that I could really relate to the instrument. There's a nice long stringed vocal quality to the instrument, which really appealed to me. You actually get some feedback from the instrument in terms of when the strings are vibrating, the whole instrument vibrates, and you get some good feedback. And I was into a little bit of pop music and things like that. And the bass is a very good rhythm instrument. I think for me, rhythm is one of my primary musical characteristics, things that I think I relate to very, very quickly and easily. And so I think is the next best thing to bass drum.
Leah Roseman (00:05:18):
Now we're going to be focusing quite a bit on your beautiful solo album, but before we get into that, it might be interesting to talk a little bit more about your development. So Henry Portnoi was your main teacher and mentor?
Edwin Barker (00:05:33):
Yeah. I studied with Henry Portnoi when I went to New England Conservatory. And actually I studied with him, I was living in the Albany area in my last two years of high school. And I had a mentor who, by the name of Dave Cobb, who also studied with Portnoi in Boston. And so he and I would drive to Boston once a month and take a lesson from Henry Portnoi, who was then the principal double bass of the Boston Symphony. And I studied with him for the most part, my junior and senior years, and then for four years at New England Conservatory. And in terms of his teaching style, he was a bit of more than a bit, quite a bit of a disciplinarian.
(00:06:34):
His approach to music was very systematic and analytical. And the very first time I played for him, Dave took me to Henry Portnoi's house, and I climbed up the stairs with the bass, which is what all bassists need to know how to do well. And I went into his studio and started to play for him. And actually, I ended up playing some unaccompanied Bach just for the first time. And I played for him. And then after I was done playing this, it was an allemande as I recall, he looked at me and he was kind of silent for a second, and then he said, well, you should be very successful. And then he began to rip me to shreds musically, at least at the time, I thought that's what it was. And so that was my introduction to Henry Portnoi. My other great influence as a student, I also studied in the West Coast with a Double Bass teacher by the name of Peter Mecurio. And Peter was a prominent studio musician in the West coast, and I lived out there for a little bit. And when I was in junior high school, and Peter was somewhat the opposite of Henry Portnoi in that, Peter was a bit of a laid back Californian, but very demanding. And so I had some very good perspectives on how to approach the instrument, and the discipline thing is extremely important. And so yeah, that was my start. I studied with Henry Portnoi until I graduated from New England Conservatory.
Leah Roseman (00:08:33):
And I imagine at that point, there's no way you could have imagined in a million years that you would've filled his shoes as Principal Bass of the Boston Symphony?
Edwin Barker (00:08:40):
Well, no one was more shocked than me, I must say at the time, when I was a senior at New England Conservatory, well, actually when I was a junior going to my senior year, I was a student at Tanglewood. And interestingly, Henry Portnoi taught there at Tanglewood in the summers. I was a Fellow there, and I was 21 when I went there. And I had wanted to go there previous to that, but he wouldn't, wouldn't allow it. And I had been to some other festivals. I'd gone to the Music Academy of the West and studied with Peter Mecurio. And then I did some intense chamber music at the Blossom Festival.
(00:09:25):
So I did finally go to Tanglewood. I had never set foot on the grounds of Tanglewood until that point, the summer of 1975. And during that time, there was an opening in the New York Philharmonic. So while I was at Tanglewood, I practiced for it and went down and auditioned for that. And at that point, I made the finals. I didn't get the job, but I don't think they didn't hire anyone, so they wanted to try me out for several months. So I left my New England Conservatory senior year, and I went down and started playing with the New York Philharmonic as a substitute member. And there I met the members of the section there. Johnny Schaeffer was the principal. And Orin O'Brien was very influential and helpful to me. She let me borrow one of her basses there. I didn't have a very good instrument. And while I was in New York, there was an audition for the Chicago Symphony. So I got on a plane from New York and went to Chicago and auditioned for Soli, George Solti and the members of the Bass section of the Chicago Symphony. And lo and behold, I got the job. So I went back to New York and decided that because I got into Chicago, I was going to go back and finish my degree at NEC, and that's what I did. So senior year, and then I started in Chicago, and while I was in Chicago three months later, there was an opening for Principal in Boston, and I auditioned for that and oh my God, I got it. And so yes, that was basically it. So I ended up playing in three major symphony orchestras within the space of a year and a half.
Leah Roseman (00:11:32):
I'm curious, what bass did you use to audition for Chicago?
Edwin Barker (00:11:36):
It was the bass that I had as a student, and I also used that to audition for Boston because I didn't own an expensive instrument. The bass I had was a modern, well, at the time, relatively modern, about 1950, a German instrument made in 1950. I bought it with my own money when I was a junior in high school. It cost $600 at the time. And that bass was my instrument all the way up through school. And it got me every job I ever got, I won.
Leah Roseman (00:12:09):
That's very interesting. I was actually curious about the logistics. You said you flew, instead of driving from New York to Chicago
Edwin Barker (00:12:19):
At that time, you would buy a seat for it and put it in the seat. And it's a little more difficult nowadays to do that sort of thing. Now you have to trunk the bass wherever we fly.
Leah Roseman (00:12:34):
That's what I thought.
Edwin Barker (00:12:35):
But at the time I bought a seat for it.
Leah Roseman (00:12:37):
Yeah. Just one more question about mentors. I understood you spent a summer with David Perlman of the Cleveland Orchestra.
Edwin Barker (00:12:44):
That's correct. When I studied with him, by the way, his teaching was also really influential. I should not neglect to give him a shout out as well. He was Principal in Cleveland, and I was again at the Blossom Music Festival, which at Kent State, which was a chamber music festival. And you get to take lessons from, at the time, it was Dave Perlman and Dave's schooling was significantly different than anything I'd ever had before. It was an interesting awakening say. So my playing ended up being very much a conglomeration of all of those approaches. I took everyone that I studied with very, very seriously, and I applied their approaches. And Dave Perlman's was somewhat foreign to me, so I worked really hard that summer to try to accommodate his concepts.
Leah Roseman (00:13:51):
Could you elaborate? I'm curious about how it was so contrasting.
Edwin Barker (00:13:55):
Oh, well, interesting. A lot of it had to do with the bow arm and articulation, sort of the Boston schooling. The Boston approach has a great deal to do, especially as Henry Portnoi taught. It has a great deal to do with articulations, and it is very, very, it recognizes that the double bass in the orchestral setting, one of its major functions is that of a rhythm instrument. We do lot, we end up playing a lot of percussive stuff, even in things like Beethoven. I mean, we're doubling the timpani a lot.
(00:14:40):
And so there is a very specific approach to bowing that puts a strong emphasis on articulations, both consonant and vowel articulations in a bowing setting. And the mixture of those to create, well, it's like a language. I mean, when we talk, we mix vowels and consonants and some of the consonants are rather harsh and others are not. And Dave Perlman's approach, from what I could gather, the weeks that I studied with him that summer was a much more dolce kind of approach. He liked to use looser bow hair, for example, very efficient left hand and drawing a sound using, not forcing the instrument, not forcing the instrument. And so that very sort of horizontal way of bow rather than going into the string, so much more of this very, that was very different from what I had studied in Boston. And so it's a conglomeration, but my schooling essentially centers around the Boston School. The double bass is not a violin, it's not a cello, by the way I play the overhand grip.
Leah Roseman (00:16:18):
Yeah, I was wondering about that.
Edwin Barker (00:16:22):
Even though my early training was very much from an upper spring player's point of view, because my first teacher was a violist. So the schooling in Boston has to do with using the larger muscle groups for the bow arm so that articulations are done. And the primary source of energy and movement is from the back and the shoulders. So even the articulations are done essentially from the shoulder, and the bow is suspended from the hand and carried across the string rather than dragged across the string. And so that was a very different approach than what was in Cleveland and also in many other schools of bass playing. And so that's what I like too. That's what I teach. That's what I was taught.
Leah Roseman (00:17:24):
Yeah, I can really relate to that as a violinist. Well, if we could jump over to Basso Profundo,
Edwin Barker (00:17:30):
Oh, sure.
Leah Roseman (00:17:31):
So I thought, so this Bach suite, first of all, it's your arrangement.
Edwin Barker (00:17:36):
Yes.
Leah Roseman (00:17:37):
How different is it than the standard bass arrangements
Edwin Barker (00:17:41):
Of that piece in particular or generally?
Leah Roseman (00:17:44):
Well, I was just curious why you felt the need to make your own arrangement.
Edwin Barker (00:17:48):
Well, I'll tell you what my arrangement was. I took the cello part, I looked at it, I read it in treble clef down two octaves, and I played it.
Leah Roseman (00:18:00):
Okay.
Edwin Barker (00:18:01):
Okay. So that's what it is. However, a lot of the voicings had to be to be dealt with different than the cello, essentially, the bass being tuned for the most part, generally speaking, in most schools of playing, the bass is tuned in fourths. And as we know, the cello is tuned in fifths. And so the big challenge in interpreting unaccompanied Bach on the double bass is finding a key signature and a way of playing that makes it sound idiomatic for the instrument.
(00:18:42):
So that because of the tuning, that wouldn't necessitate in some instances, hopefully as few as possible, that would necessitate changing some of the voicings a little bit. So a chord might end up being, I hate to say it, but it might end up being inverted in order. You still have the harmony, but the bass line might be slightly different, although we want to try to stay away from that as much as possible. And the particular key that I like to do it in is on the double bass. The key would be in A minor, however, because we play in a scordatura, which is a solo tuning, the key ends up being in B minor. Because it's solo tuning, the double bass is up a whole step. The key ends up being in B minor because the double bass, a solo double bass is tuned in a whole step higher than we would play in the orchestra. People get confused by that, but that's a whole nother discussion. The bass is the last of the modern string instruments to have a standardized tuning,
(00:20:04):
And that's why you see some double basses with extensions on them. For example, there's a school of bass playing actually in Canada, which is the bass is tuned in fifths. A lot of the solo repertoire is written for double bass with a high tuning, and I refer to it as bass in D is what it's, and so it gets complicated, but make it simple. The piece ends up in B minor to the ear, which is only a half step. It the same ends up being in the same tessitura as baroque cello. Baroque cello is tuned at a 415,
(00:20:47):
And the C ends up being quite low. So it's very, very, very close to what the same tessitura, although obviously the timbre and the color is rather different. And so I feel like I'm kind of being honest to the piece that way. And the other thing is when it's played in that key on the double bass, it allows for the strings to ring a great deal. If it ends up being feeling like it's an A minor, E can ring, the D is quite resonant. The open a stringing is quite resonant. Of course, all of that's up a whole step. So it's the resonance of that that I try to find when I play unaccompanied Bach, let the instrument ring as much as possible.
Leah Roseman (00:21:48):
Yeah, I hoped we could include the Courante, which is I think my favorite movement from that.
Edwin Barker (00:21:53):
It's mine too. Sure. Absolutely.
Leah Roseman (00:21:56):
Nice.
Edwin Barker (00:21:57):
Yeah, (Music)
Leah Roseman (00:24:14):
It is interesting with the different tunings, Ed, because I interview so many different kinds of musicians for this podcast, and I'm always learning. And there's some especially folk traditions that have such interesting and different tunings on the violin anyway.
Edwin Barker (00:24:29):
Yes. Oh yeah. That's interesting. Yes, of course. That's not my area of expertise, but that is quite interesting. I know that of course, sometimes there are some pieces that are written for scordatura for violin. And the double bass, again, it has never been standardized. It still hasn't. In fact, honestly, the base is as much sort of a direct descendant of the viol family or the violone family as it is, perhaps even more so than it would be part of the violin family. And even up until in the 19th century, for example, many, many Italian school, the Italian school of double bass playing, they only had three strings on the instrument. In fact, the instruments that I play, the older instruments that I play were originally three stringed instruments. They've been converted to four.
Leah Roseman (00:25:34):
So was it the upper string that was missing?
Edwin Barker (00:25:36):
No, the lower one.
Leah Roseman (00:25:37):
Oh,
Edwin Barker (00:25:38):
Yeah. And as a matter of fact, for instance, you've probably heard of Domenico Dragonetti?
Leah Roseman (00:25:43):
Yeah,
Edwin Barker (00:25:44):
Yeah. The great bassist of the early 19th century. And he had only three strings, and of course he knew Beethoven and a lot, some of the Beethoven double bass parts were a result to some extent of Dragonetti's skill and influence. However, he couldn't play to a low E like we can nowadays. So he would take, for instance, the Beethoven part and anything that went down below the A, he took up octave. So at that point, he would not be doubling the cello, and on octave lower he, because the cellos had the same part, he would be playing in unison with the cellos. So if you're not totally confused, I can make you even more confused now by saying more, but even nowadays, it's not standardized. As I said before, you see some double basses with extensions that allows us to go down to what is known a low C, which is the equivalent of a 16 foot stop on the organ, A 16 foot in Europe, especially in central Europe. The double basis there generally play on a five string instrument, which takes it down to a low B.
Leah Roseman (00:27:17):
I did not know that.
Edwin Barker (00:27:18):
Yeah. So if you see a German orchestra playing at some point, have a look. There are five string instruments. In fact, we have one five string instrument in our bass section here in Boston, which we use quite frequently. And then of course, we all have extensions so we can go down to a low C. The point being that we need so much of the 19th century repertoire, and earlier we are doubling the cello line on octave lower. And of course, that's one reason we're called the double bass. We're doubling the bass line an octave lower.
Leah Roseman (00:27:53):
Yeah. So maybe if we could go back to your very first week in Boston, I believe that was kind of special.
Edwin Barker (00:28:00):
Well, yes. It's interesting. Interesting. When I started as Principal, I was hired when I was 22. I believe I, I'm the youngest principal, or at the time still am been the youngest principal hired for that orchestra. And then I started the following year, I stayed in Chicago for a year. So I was 23 when I actually took the stage in Boston. And my very first week, Maestro Ozawa had programmed the Mahler Symphony number 1, which has the third movement, starts with a very exposed double bass solo. And it sounds simple, but that's why it's so hard. And my very first rehearsal, I had to play that, and of course, again, a little bit of a trial by fire. And then we recorded it that week, and then we took it on that whole season. I must have played it about 15 or 20 times with the orchestra. We took it on tour to Japan and so on and so forth. That was my very first day on the job, was playing that in a rehearsal. And of course, it was the first time the orchestra, other than Ozawa and those that were on the audition committee, it was the first time the orchestra had heard me play anything.
(00:29:40):
So yeah, it was a little bit of pressure, but it turned out okay, I'm still here after 48 years. And by the way, someone did a tabulation recently, one of my colleagues in the orchestra who was a retired orchestra librarian, and he looked up how many times I played that solo in the orchestra of my 48 years, and it turns out it's about 84 times.
Leah Roseman (00:30:09):
Wow.
Edwin Barker (00:30:10):
Yeah. I've recorded it twice. I've taken on tour to Europe, Asia. It's a great piece. It's a wonderful piece, and yes, I'm very happy to have done it.
Leah Roseman (00:30:26):
So Seiji Ozawa was with the Boston Symphony for such a long time.
Edwin Barker (00:30:31):
Yes.
Leah Roseman (00:30:31):
You worked with him for so many years.
Edwin Barker (00:30:32):
Yes.
Leah Roseman (00:30:33):
When he first came, was his English a little bit limited?
Edwin Barker (00:30:39):
Yes, of course I wasn't present when he first came to Boston. He had been music director there for I think three years, three or four years when I went there. And before that point, he had been music director in San Francisco and then also -
Leah Roseman (00:30:55):
in Toronto
Edwin Barker (00:30:56):
Excuse me, and Toronto. That's correct. Yes, that's right. Also, he had been director of the Ravinia Festival, so he'd worked with the Chicago Orchestra as well. His English, his English certainly was a lot better than my Japanese.
Leah Roseman (00:31:17):
I'd read something about that because I only got to work with him once when I was a Fellow at Tanglewood. But often I find conductors that English is not their first language, but maybe their fourth language or something. Sometimes they're better conductors because they're not so fluent in spoke, you know what I mean? They'll just give what you need physically.
Edwin Barker (00:31:37):
Sure. You worked with Ozawa at Tanglewood.
Leah Roseman (00:31:42):
Once? I mean, yes,
Edwin Barker (00:31:44):
But that's important. My first extensive working with him also was when I was a Fellow at Tanglewood. His English was really, I thought it was fine, and he had a great sense of humor, very, I thought I enjoyed working with him a lot. His technique was quite expressive and quite beautiful, and I thought also that some conductors have a very beautiful technique, as I'm sure, but it doesn't impart any helpful information to the orchestra. Audience loves it. It looks really good on TV or whatever, but it doesn't really help. I never felt that way with Ozawa. I felt that everything he did, even though it was quite beautiful, but it was also imparted a lot of very helpful information. In other words, it was sincere. He wasn't just trying to look good, and he was a natural at that sort of thing. And his memory was phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. Did virtually every piece we played, he did from memory, including a two and a half hour opera in a foreign language. It's astounding.
Leah Roseman (00:33:13):
It always amazes me with many conductors have that kind of memory, and people, I've asked about that for them, it really feels natural. It feels more relaxing not to have the score because they know it so well. Nothing's getting in the way, which I can't relate to. I've never had that kind of memory.
Edwin Barker (00:33:29):
A lot of them are like that, unless of course they're not. They want be like that, but they're not great at it. And so occasionally you'll get someone who's, well, actually, it doesn't happen much with us, the guys and gals, men and women who conduct us when they do it from memory, it's always phenomenal. And many don't. Many use the score, and that's fine. Also, if there is a conductor who tries to play from memory, tries to do it from memory to make an impression, but they're not great at it, that can be a problem. But generally, I mean, the conductors we have are just phenomenal as of late. They've been really, really wonderful to work with. Even the guest conductors as well.
Leah Roseman (00:34:23):
Yeah.
Edwin Barker (00:34:24):
Yeah.
Leah Roseman (00:34:26):
So let's go back to Basso Profundo, your album of solo music. So Mieczyslaw Weinberg, if I'm saying his name right?
Edwin Barker (00:34:35):
Yeah. Congratulations. I always just say Moishe. Maybe that's the other way of saying it. Moishe Weinberg. But yeah, good
Leah Roseman (00:34:47):
He slavicized his name. I was very moved to learn about him. I actually didn't know about his life or music. Had you played his music before you discovered this piece?
Edwin Barker (00:34:57):
Only a little bit in the orchestra. He wrote a lot of orchestra pieces, and we did some, we've had an occasional guest violinist who will come and do a Weinberg piece.
(00:35:15):
And so I like to say he's the greatest composer you've never heard of, at least here in the US. I rank his personally, I'm really pleased that he wrote this piece for the double bass. He wrote a lot of pieces for instruments, of course, but it is, I believe, of a Shostakovich level of writing. And that's nice because most of our repertoire on the solo repertoire I'm talking about is leaves a lot to be desired that he wrote this piece. And as you can see from the recording, Bach is like, what can I say? Bach is Bach. Over the years, whatever limited time I had to study solo repertoire on the instrument and perform it. I find that if I'm going to really try to play something really well, I want it to be first rate music. I would rather play Bach than Dragonetti or Botessini or something like that. So I would like to expend my physical, my intellectual, and my emotional resources, learning Bach. And also the Weinberg is in that category. As I say to some of my students, that piece is a bit of a bone crusher, technically.
Leah Roseman (00:36:52):
Yeah, it sounds very virtuosic.
Edwin Barker (00:36:58):
It is a terrifying piece. It's a terrifying piece.
Leah Roseman (00:37:02):
Well, I thought we could include the third movement, the Moderato.
Edwin Barker (00:37:06):
Okay, wonderful.
Leah Roseman (00:37:09):
You're about to hear the third movement of the Weinberg Sonata for Solo Bass, Opus 108. Weinberg was a brilliant composer now being discovered in the West. He grew up in Poland. His parents worked in the Yiddish Theater, and he fled the Nazis and then lived in the Soviet Union. There's a link to information about this brilliant and prolific composer in the show notes, along with links to Edwin Barker and the Basso Profundo album. (music)
(00:40:13):
And also, I thought we could include clips just to show the range of the piece, the fifth movement, the Lento. It's so lyrical to show off that.
Edwin Barker (00:40:22):
Yeah. The interesting thing about the Weinberg and why I think it pairs nicely with the Bach fifth cello suite. They both have a similar emotional impact. They both have a somewhat of a, well, especially the Weinberg, there's a lot of tragedy in that piece. And the Bach as well. And interestingly, the Weinberg is six movements long. Bach suite is six movements long. A lot of the movements are comparable in the Weinberg to dance movements that occur in the Bach. So that Lento, it's the fifth movement that you're referring to?
Leah Roseman (00:41:13):
Yeah,
Edwin Barker (00:41:13):
Yeah. That is essentially could be argued that there are characteristics of a sarabande in that if you search hard enough, you can find that. So yes, I think there's a nice connection between the two pieces. The Weinberg is difficult. It takes a really good player to play it well, but it is idiomatic for the instrument, which is not the case with the Bach that has to be adjusted to make it feel more idiomatic.
Leah Roseman (00:41:56):
This is an excerpt of the fifth movement, Lento of the Weinberg Sonata.(music)
(00:42:55):
So he fled the Nazis during the Second World War from Poland?
Edwin Barker (00:43:00):
Yes.
Leah Roseman (00:43:00):
With his sister, and she had to go back
Edwin Barker (00:43:05):
That part of it, I'm not aware of that part of his family connections. I do know that he was one step ahead of the Nazis.
Leah Roseman (00:43:14):
Yeah. I believe that he fled with his sister, and then she had to go back because of illness or something, and then he never saw her again. And then he visited Poland once only after the war, many years later.
Edwin Barker (00:43:26):
I see. So apparently she didn't survive the war.
Leah Roseman (00:43:31):
I don't think anyone from his family survived.
Edwin Barker (00:43:32):
Yeah, that's correct. Right. As I said, he was one step ahead of the Nazis. Look, we know this. He came of age along with Shostakovich, by the way. They were very, very close.
(00:43:48):
The two of them, Shostakovich was a mentor, and they bounced ideas off of each other a lot. But both of those composers came of age, I would say, in the worst place at the worst time in history, especially Weinberg, who was Jewish, the Russian Revolution, Stalin, Hitler, the Soviet Union, the Cold War, et cetera, et cetera, all of that stuff. And I think even Weinberg was even thrown in solitary confinement for a while. I'd have to research this more carefully, so I may be not speaking, but I believe either his father or his father-in-law was murdered by the KGB, and he was, look, if you just looked at a picture of Stalin the wrong way, you'd end up being thrown in prison. The fact that he got through this and he merged and was sort of rehabilitated in the sense that when things became a little more liberal in the Soviet Union, he all of a sudden became a big deal composer. And I mean, what a life. You can hear that in his music. You can very much hear that in his music.
Leah Roseman (00:45:28):
And the final movement is very virtuosic for the bass. I thought we could have a clip of that as well.
Edwin Barker (00:45:35):
Okay, yeah. Yeah. The final movement, the tempo marking is ridiculous. And I tried to adhere to the tempo marking. I played this piece in public a number of times, and I've spoken with other double bassists who have studied the piece and played it. And in fact, some of them wanted to record it. And they said to me, you mean you're playing this in public? I said, yeah. I said, I am. And it's a real challenge. I mean, in the recording studio, you can fuss with it and fix things and fix that, but when you're on stage, they're all alone working through that piece. It takes a lot. It takes a lot. But yeah, I've done it a number of times in public.
Leah Roseman (00:46:37):
You're about to hear a clip of the sixth and final movement of the Weinberg Sonata.(music)
(00:47:22):
I want to let you know about some past episodes that I'm linking directly in the show notes to this one with Mark Deutsch, Thomas Cabaniss, Jeeyoon Kim, Rachel Mercer, Hillary Simms, Gail Archer, Jessica Cottis and so many more. It’s a joy to be able to bring these meaningful conversations to you, but this project costs me quite a bit of money and lots of time; please support this series through either my merchandise store or on my Ko-fi page; you’ll find the links in the show notes. For the merch, it features a unique design by artist Steffi Kelly and you can browse clothes, stickers and more, everything printed on demand. For the Ko-fi page you can buy me a coffee once, or every month. You’ll also find the links to sign up for my newsletter where you’ll get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Please check out my back catalogue, with episodes going back to 2021. Now back to Ed Barker!
(00:48:14):
And as a symphonic bass player, I mean, your music isn't that challenging. Mostly what you have to play, I'm guessing.
Edwin Barker (00:48:22):
Let me tell you about Beethoven 9, Symphony number 9, for example.
Leah Roseman (00:48:27):
Well, okay, that I get.
Edwin Barker (00:48:29):
For example.
(00:48:31):
So Domenico Dragonetti, the great double bass who spent most of his career in London, when the premier of that piece, there was some premieres. There was, I think in Vienna and London and a couple of places. But so when it got to him, the management of the orchestra that he was involved in showed him the score, and he looked at it and he said, well, if you want me to play this, you're going to have to pay me more money. I mean, basically that's what it was. And he said, this piece is too hard. If you want me to play this, you got to pay me money. And so they wouldn't do it. So interestingly, he was not involved in the premiere of that piece. So that's one example. That piece is still, if you can play every note in that piece, the way it's supposed to be played in the bass part, you can play anything.
(00:49:32):
And my approach to playing and teaching orchestral music is that the bulk of our best repertoire is in the orchestral setting for the double basses. We have some good chamber music pieces, but not many. There's more being written all the time, of course. But my God, the stuff that has been written for the orchestral setting, the double bass, it's wonderful repertoire. It's great, great music. And the approach to that has to be, the way I teach this, and I've always felt this, I've been taught this, that we take as much care in executing the parts in the orchestral repertoire as we do with solo repertoire. Or another way to put it is I like to tell my students, you have to think of yourself as playing in a giant chamber music ensemble and that you're the cellist or the bassist, you're the bass line. Let's say we're doing a Mozart symphony, for example.
(00:50:44):
You have to think a great cellist would think in a string quartet, Beethoven symphony, same idea. So that means that there's a lot of care that has to be taken. As I was saying before, we work on articulations, we work on just playing a whole note properly in a certain piece requires a certain commitment and amount of thought. So in that sense, yes, it is as hard. In fact, in some ways, orchestra playing if you want to try to do it properly on the double bass is I think it's harder than solo playing actually. Just trying to get those big strings to articulate, to produce sound. There's a whole technique involved with it. And that's of course, another three hour discussion. But my basic point is this, the same attention to detail that we spend with solo repertoire and chamber music repertoire we spend with orchestral repertoire. And if you don't, then you're going to coast and not really have a fulfilling musical career. You'll be making money and stuff, but kind of just going along for the ride.
Leah Roseman (00:52:09):
Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. I think it's probably the same for, well, except for maybe the principal wind players who have extremely virtuosic solos all the time. But for the rest of us, yes, we have some very challenging stuff to play, but even as a violinist, just to keep your playing on the kind of level you need, you don't always get that challenge on a weekly basis in the orchestra, especially when you've been playing the repertoire a long time and there isn't that much new. So I guess that's what I was kind of getting at in terms of just the stretching yourself technically and interpretively.
Edwin Barker (00:52:45):
Yeah, I tell you, look, I'm in my last season with the BSO. I'm retiring end of June 25. It will have been 40, I think 48 years. I tell you from my perspective, and I think a lot of the guys in our bass section here in Boston would feel the same way. They might express it differently, but we have a wonderful bass section here. There is nothing like sitting on a stage like Symphony Hall, which is one of the great halls of the world with a great orchestra and a great conductor playing great repertoire. There was nothing like it. We just did a Sibelius seventh symphony last night at Symphony Hall with Andris Nelsons. He's very wonderful with Sibelius's. A piece that I don't know that well, but it really affected me. It was wonderful, the string sound. It is a wonderful thing. I'm really happy to have spent a career doing that. This year, most of the pieces I'm playing will be the last time I ever play them. And I tell you, I enjoy them just as much now as I did when I first started. And I think some of my colleagues feel that way. Now again, not everyone's going to feel that way, but it's nice and it helps if you approach the music from that perspective perspective of, yes, God is in the details here, and I'm going to adhere to the details, understand them, commit, be part of a giant chamber music ensemble,
Leah Roseman (00:54:40):
And it makes it so hard to retire, right?
Edwin Barker (00:54:43):
It does. But in my case, I think it's time. I want to retire while I'm still playing well. I'll be 71 pretty soon. This recording was just made a couple years ago. So I'm still, I feel playing well enough to be dignified about what I'm doing, and I want to leave that way. I don't want to stick around until I'm not playing well.
Leah Roseman (00:55:18):
Yeah,
Edwin Barker (00:55:20):
So it's time.
Leah Roseman (00:55:23):
Yeah, I was talking to someone about this because I know for many of my colleagues, it's such an emotional thing to think of retiring, and people who aren't in our profession don't necessarily get it.
(00:55:38):
And I think being able to make music on such a high level in such an ensemble like that is what's so hard to give up.
Edwin Barker (00:55:46):
Yes. That doesn't happen every day. We just did this season, Mahler Symphony, number eight, and oh my God, there must have been between the chorus and the orchestra, there must have been 300 performers involved in that. And in a hall like Symphony Hall, and of course, I mean, who's writing music like Mahler now? I mean, it's really something. It was just an amazing experience. And people in the audience come up every once in a while. They'll come up and say, after a concert, they'll say, wow, I've never heard anything quite like that. I said, well, do you come often? And he said, well, no, this is my first time here, actually. And I said, well, yeah. Where were you sitting? Well, they happen to have a really good seat out in the hall. And I said, it's a lot different than listening to it on a CD, isn't it? You don't get the same impact. Not at all. And yes, it's an honor to be able to have a career doing that stuff. All the things we could be doing with our lives. I think it's a nice thing. It's an honest thing.
Leah Roseman (00:56:59):
So maybe we could talk about the sound of the hall because you have a especially beautiful hall, and the influence of that hall on the orchestra sound.
Edwin Barker (00:57:11):
Well, I could also unfortunately go on a long time about this. First of all, with reference to the double bass, the double basses and what we do with the bass line, it's a very resonant hall. It's a friendly hall to the bass line. I think it may have added years to my career in terms of when you play in that hall, you get a lot of nice feedback from the hall. It does mean that you have to articulate a little more carefully than you would say in another hall that is not as sort of, doesn't bathe you in sound quite as much. So in that sense, the BSO bass players bass section have a reputation of playing sort of on the short side in terms of articulation. That's a general idea. Otherwise it can sound a little tubby.
(00:58:17):
And that may be one reason why there's such an emphasis on the quality and variety of the way we articulate our notes in the bass line. The other thing is, generally speaking, I'm convinced that a hall has a very definite impact on the overall sound characteristic of a given orchestra if they work in that environment all the time. And there are a lot of reasons for that. A lot of it has to do with the way the brain processes the sound and how you put that out. It has to do with the culture. The culture of the area that the orchestra is in. A German orchestra will sound different than a French orchestra. For example, the BSO, the Boston Symphony has had a reputation of being a color orchestra, or another way of putting it is one of the more European sounding of the American orchestras. And I could go on and on having played to some extent in New York and also much more in Chicago. And having listened to many orchestras come to Boston and play in our hall.
(00:59:43):
When they come and play in our hall, they still sound different than we do because of the environment that they make music in. And so it has a definite effect on how the orchestra sounds and the color of the orchestra. It sounds rather European. A lot of our hall is very similar to the Musikverein hall in Vienna. It's also very acoustically, rather similar to the Royal, the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam. And I think the BSO, it could be argued, has a sound production that is closer to their kind of sound production, for example, than let's say, another great American orchestra that plays in a hall that is not as warm sounding. That's what I think. I mean, conductors, they would have strong opinions about it as all. Also, I also am convinced that especially being a string player and noticing a lot about string playing, I'm convinced that string players and probably wind players as well, but I can't speak to that with as much expertise. String players tend to produce a sound on their instrument that is very much like their voice, their individual voice. I've noticed this with bass players a lot. I mean, if someone talks rough kind of talks like this, and plays like this, they play like that. And someone's very smooth and kind of higher pitched. They produce a sound that's a little more that way.
(01:01:30):
And this doesn't surprise me at all. It has to do with the way we're wired. That's why you'll find that I think German orchestras produce a different sound than a French orchestra does for the most part. There are a lot of factors that go into it. In fact, it represents the language. I mean, it's not surprising to me that the underhand grip of double bass bow, the underhand grip tended to gravitate towards the Slavic and Germanic countries, whereas the overhand grip tended, as it spread out, tended to gravitate towards players in more Latin speaking countries. Italy, France, Spain, for example. Again, that's a generalization, but I think if someone did some research into that, the theory could be really proven. And I think people will find instruments and set up instruments, the way they talk, the way they talk is based on the way their personality is. And there's a lot to that. So you ask, does a hall affect the sound of an orchestra? And I say, yes, absolutely. It becomes sort of becomes the DNA of the orchestra's identity, the concert hall. So we still sound like the Boston Symphony when we play in New York or some other place. They still sound like the New York Philharmonic when they play in Boston.
Leah Roseman (01:03:13):
Now, you'd mentioned your first audition for New York Phil was a no hire situation, which we run across this a lot in our industry. What are your thoughts on the audition process, trials, all of that?
Edwin Barker (01:03:27):
There is nothing that we do, at least in my experience as a classical musician, performing classical musician, there is nothing we do that is like playing an audition. And even if you were to participate, compete in a concerto competition, for example, it's still a different thing entirely. I mean, at least when I was auditioning half a century ago, basically you'd pay thousands of dollars, buy two seats on a plane, fly someplace to play a preliminary audition. In my case, they were behind screens. Actually, no one of them, but the other two were. And you play for six or seven minutes, and that's it. It's either yes or no after that. And then as you progress, you get to play a little more, but nevertheless, and you're playing excerpts, you're not playing complete pieces. And so there's elements of the horse race involved in auditions. What do I think about auditions? I think at least what we do in Boston, and most of the US orchestras, I guess it's behind a screen. It's anonymous.
(01:05:00):
There's a strong effort to give the individuals auditioning the benefit of any doubt. But at the same time, they have to prove themselves very quickly. So that means there's a certain kind of preparation that's involved. It's not unlike competing as an Olympic athlete, for example. I think the auditions are fair and appropriate. Now, the screen system, the system of voting, at least the way we do it in Boston, is good. Even the recorded rounds are, we tend to give people, especially in bass auditions for sure, the way we think about it, we tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. In other words, recordings can be different quality. Let's hear them again, live to see if they can, or this person is not clearly not of our level. That's very obvious. That's one thing. Yeah, I think it's good. Sometimes when there's a no hire, it happens. It happens. And it was particularly difficult during the Covid trying to hire people because we couldn't get candidates to come.
(01:06:23):
But I think it's good. And I think the balance of power between the conductor and the committee is about right. In our case, the committee authorizes the conductor to pick some people, but the authorization has to occur first. Before the conductor used to be a conductor would just bring their friend, their friends in from Europe or whatever, and auditioned them in private or something, and then say, yeah, you got it. It's not the case anymore.
Leah Roseman (01:06:57):
And do you have trials, trial periods?
Edwin Barker (01:07:00):
Yes, we do. Yes, yes. Sometimes people have to come in and play for a few weeks as part of the audition process. And then if they are hired and given a contract, they are on probation and they get feedback during that time. So if there are issues, they can adjust to that. I mean, it's about as fair as it could possibly be at this point. I don't know how you could make it any more fair. And it is based on the quality of what the person does when they play it is very interesting. Also, another thing I might say about auditions is this. During the finals, the screen comes down so we can see who's playing. I don't know if it's done in your orchestra that way or not.
Leah Roseman (01:07:51):
We stopped doing that recently, actually.
Edwin Barker (01:07:53):
So the screen stays up.
Leah Roseman (01:07:55):
Yeah,
Edwin Barker (01:07:55):
Yeah. Well, I like that. I think that's the best thing. Typically, when I'm on a committee, I will, the screen comes down for the finals last two or three people, but anyone on the committee who wants to sit behind a screen can do. So it's very interesting. I've been on committees where during the finals, the screen comes down, but me and a handful of other people are sitting behind a screen and I have, the rest of the committee is watching. And I've seen instances where people behind the screen vote one way and people watching vote completely different way.
(01:08:44):
So I don't have an answer for that. I don't know which is better. Moving the way one moves is important, but also you make judgements based on the way a person looks. And maybe that's not the best thing to do. But yeah, I know a lot of orchestras, I think, leave the screens up all the way. And the final finals, we take the screen down. The only time I like having the screen down is if it's a bass audition. And I like to see, because sometimes we have to work with the player. And also, not only that, we often have chamber music as well. Yeah, it is certainly better than the conductor bringing their cronies in from Europe and saying that you get the job. That's it.
Leah Roseman (01:09:43):
Yeah,
Edwin Barker (01:09:44):
I said so. Yeah.
Leah Roseman (01:09:46):
Yeah. In our orchestra, the committees have considerably expanded with different collective bargaining agreements. It used to be just the principals. I think when I got the job, I think there were four people on my committee, and now we have 12. It's a big difference.
Edwin Barker (01:10:01):
Yeah. Yeah. I think we have 11 or 12 on our committee. Well, depending, yeah. But auditions are not like anything else we do. What can I say? It takes a, and you have to be out there doing them to get good at it. Even if you're a really, really experienced player and you have an audition in a long time, it can be a very foreign experience.
Leah Roseman (01:10:32):
So we had started this talking about your mentors and different approaches to learning the bass and learning music. So I'm curious if you want to reflect a little bit on your feelings as an educator, the kind of things you like to work on with students.
Edwin Barker (01:10:46):
Yeah. I mean, you can get a better opinion probably from those that have studied with me. They'll give you their point of view. As an educator, my primary interest is, well, a lot of it's right. So I like to make it clear to the students that I am not your father figure. I am not your shrink. I'm here to teach you a craft. I like to keep it at a professional distance like that.
(01:11:30):
I can't, and I'm not good at looking into the soul of another person and saying, you need to do this and do that. I'm teaching you a craft, and here's what you need to do to make great music. And it has to do with this mixture of technique and musicality. They are together. They are not separate. And you build one by building the other and you build them together. So there's a whole thing about that. My biggest responsibility is to teach them the craft so that they can be artists if they have it in them. And even if they don't, they will be masters of their craft. And then if there's artistic inspiration on top of that, wonderful. In my opinion, that's the difference between an amateur and a professional. A professional knows how to make things work night after night. Sometimes it may not be unbelievably inspired, but the control of the craft will always be a high level.
(01:12:41):
Otherwise, you could have someone who's a really, really inspired amateur and on any given night could give a phenomenal performance of something, but the next night can't do that or whatever. They don't know why or how it happened. And so that's my basic philosophy of teaching. It's a three-legged stool or orchestral playing, solo playing and technique. And we spend all three of those things we spend a great deal of time on. And when I teach orchestra parts, I try not to just teach excerpts. I try to teach (singing) There's a good way to play that and a bad way to play that. So that's my basic philosophy of teaching. I don't like to be a, I'm task master, but kind of nice about it. I'm, I'm not an SOB, at least I don't think I'm, you'd have to ask my students about that.
Leah Roseman (01:13:50):
There's so many places we could wrap this up with. I don't know, maybe I'll leave you to choose Ed, maybe in terms of your role as Principal for 48 years, how to be a good leader and inspire people to follow you without resenting you. You know what I mean?
Edwin Barker (01:14:09):
I don't have any magic answers for that. But what I do know is that a couple of things, you lead by example. The members of the Boston Symphony, and in my case, the bass section, are highly, highly accomplished players. So it's not an issue of my, as a section leader being an enforcer of some sort. The best way to lead, as far as I'm concerned, it's a lead by example and to always play well. So if there are individuals, and in every large group, there's always going to be someone who may not particularly care for you one way or the other. But if you are always playing well, not really telling people what to do and setting a good example. If they don't like you, nothing you can do about that, but they will respect you. So that's my philosophy. The main thing is always play well and set a good example. Show up to work.
Leah Roseman (01:15:34):
Yeah. Well, thanks so much for this today. I really appreciate your time.
Edwin Barker (01:15:38):
Thank you.
Leah Roseman (01:15:39):
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