Rachel Eckroth and John Hadfield Interview
Below is the transcript to my interview with Rachel Eckroth and John Hadfield. The link takes you to the podcast and video versions, and the show notes and links. Rachel Eckroth and John Hadfield are wonderfully inventive musicians who have formed a duo. This podcast episode is shining a light on their recently released album “Speaking in Tongues”and you’ll hear some of this textured and dynamic music that really pushes the boundaries of a duo, along with insights into their creative process and their varied career paths.
John Hadfield is a phenomenal percussionist, drummer, and composer, for many years based in New York and now based in Paris. He’s collaborated on over 100 recordings including Grammy-award winning albums. He talked to me about performing with Kenny Werner, with Yo-Yo Ma and the Silkroad Ensemble, as well as John’s Paris Quartet.
Rachel Eckroth was nominated for a GRAMMY for her album “The Garden” and she is very active as a keyboardist, vocalist, composer, producer and arranger. She tours currently with St. Vincent, and she talked to me about her keyboards, and some of her formative experiences.
Both Rachel and John love to explore new sound colours both acoustically and with electronic instruments and this album is a powerful, inventive and immersive listening experience. You’ll find this project linked in the show notes, and hopefully some of you can attend their live shows on one of their tours. Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on all the podcast platforms.
Rachel Eckroth:
I noticed when I play in a tiny bar or something, or when I played at Madison Square Garden in some way, it's the same thing. It's like you get into this zone of playing that you don't really see how massive or how small the place is. It's just like you're just making music. So it just becomes the same thing to me. Although really it's fun to do those big gigs because they come with nice perks and stuff like that, but it's really, at some point, it's just kind of the same thing.
John Hadfield:
I would say it's still pretty vibrant. Jazz in general is really celebrated here. That was one of the things that really surprised me when I first started coming over here. I recently did a television show where they were celebrating the top jazz artists in France and giving it awards, kind of like the Jazz Grammys or something. So it's part of the culture.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, you're listening to Conversations with Musicians with Leah Roseman, which I hope inspires you through the personal stories of a fascinating diversity of musical guests. Rachel Eckroth and John Hadfield are wonderfully inventive musicians who have formed a duo. This podcast episode is shining a light on their recently released album, Speaking in Tongues, and you'll hear some of this textured and dynamic music that really pushes the boundaries of a duo, along with insights into their creative process and their varied career paths.
John Hadfield is a phenomenal percussionist, drummer, and composer for many years based in New York and now based in Paris. He's collaborated on over a hundred recordings, including Grammy Award-winning albums. He talked to me about performing with Kenny Werner, with Yo-Yo Ma and the Silk Road Ensemble, as well as John's Paris Quartet.
Rachel Eckroth was nominated for a Grammy for her album, The Garden, and she's very active as a keyboardist, vocalist, composer, producer, and arranger. She tours currently with St. Vincent, and she talked to me about her keyboards and some of her formative experiences.
Both Rachel and John love to explore new sound colors, both acoustically and with electronic instruments, and this album is a powerful, inventive and immersive listening experience. You'll find this project linked in the show notes, and hopefully some of you can attend their live shows on one of their tours.
Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on all the podcast platforms. And I've also linked the transcript to my website, leahroseman.com. It's a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to every week, and I do all the many jobs of research, production and publicity. Have a look at the description of this episode where you'll find all the links, including timestamps and different ways to support this podcast.
Hey, Rachel and John, thanks so much for joining me here today.
John Hadfield:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
It is cool because across these very different time zones, we were just talking about that, and that always gives me, it's especially delightful.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, John and I are pretty much always opposite across the world from each other.
Leah Roseman:
Today we're going to be mostly celebrating your fantastic new album, Speaking in Tongues, which was just released, and because I got a preview copy, I've been really enjoying listening to it, so thanks for this great music.
John Hadfield:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
And I want to talk about the album. We're going to be including some clips from some tracks, and I also want to get to know each of you as musicians, so we're just going to kind of take turns asking you questions and also talking about the album and some of your own projects, if that's cool.
John Hadfield:
Sure.
Leah Roseman:
So the title track, John, this is your composition, right?
John Hadfield:
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I mean, it's my composition, but Rachel works with magic on it. But yeah, it's an open sort of, as far as the composition goes, just a lead sheet and we improvise on it. A lot of my compositions, it's kind of based off of a rhythmic puzzle or a little game, and it's a lot of fun to play, and I think that's the key. I really wanted to piece that with a lot of fun to play, and since we've been playing live, it's a lot of fun to play it live as well and completely different than the album. But yeah, so I'm happy with the way it turned out.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I was wondering with you guys playing this material live, it sounds a lot of, it's very improvised, and there's a lot of layers in different elements. So when you made the album, were you together or was it remote?
Rachel Eckroth:
We were together, well, we started it together. We recorded in Greece, so in Athens we went into a studio and we laid down basically acoustic piano and drums, percussion set up. So that was for a lot of it, actually, I think it was for every track. We did every track that way to start, and then we ended up overdubbing a lot of stuff remotely and some of it together, and that's how it all formed. But the original idea was just in the studio piano and drums, but it kind of became a whole other thing later on.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, and John, do you want to just speak to the name, the title?
John Hadfield:
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We always have this, we kind of have this, I don't know, well, actually the first track that Rachel brought is The Jesus Side. So there was always this kind of religious reference, and there's no direct religious reference. It just seemed to be more of a theme. And so I'm originally from Missouri, and so when I think of the religion that is present, where I am from, it is more of this Pentecostal speaking in tongues, other worldly aspect of things. And honestly, that's an aspect that I find very interesting. I also really enjoy the, how to say, the otherworldly, and I also kind of draw a comparison between that and the art of improvisation and the fact that lots of times it's really kind of hard to articulate what are we doing? How am I ideal world, how am I improvising? And so I just kind of made that connection and that's why we landed on that title. Also, I played it in Paris a little bit, like in jam sessions, we do a lot of the time, and everybody here thought the title was so bizarre and so interesting because they couldn't really, just because it's the, it's kind lost in translation that it gave it a little more weight and made it seem even more appropriate. So that's kind of how I settled on it.
Leah Roseman:
Do you translate directly into French, like "parlant en langues?"
John Hadfield:
No. No, no.
Leah Roseman:
Ok! I understand you use kind of a cool hybrid drum kit percussion, and you're of course, you also are into electronics, so how does that work, live your setup?
John Hadfield:
Yeah, so that's exactly how for this particular track, I have an electronic drum sampler pad where I trigger the bass sound that you hear, and actually, I even trigger some of the other keyboard sounds that Rachel played just because I had the files from the session, and so I just sampled them, and so I just triggered them. It's a little more open. But yeah, I mean, that's just kind of a reflection of all the things that I'm interested in. I'm interested in electronics, electronic music, I'm interested in percussion. I had a long period of time where I just primarily only played percussion, so it's like I incorporate all of this, and that's just kind of become my sound.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. You're about to hear an excerpt from the title track from this album, Speaking in Tongues. You'll find the album linked directly in the show notes (Music)
Phase and Libration Part 1, that wasn't a mistyping, right? It's Libration not Liberation?
John Hadfield:
Yeah, that's correct.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, so there's these cool ostinato chimes that kind of reminded me of Gamelan sounds.
John Hadfield:
Oh, yeah, actually, so speaking of percussion, right, those are called Gamelan strips.
Leah Roseman:
Oh, okay.
John Hadfield:
Yeah, so good ears, but that's the instrument maker actually in Colorado who makes them. I went to their house honestly in suburbia, Fort Collins, Colorado, really exotic, and in their garage they're making them. I told them which pitches I wanted, and I came back a couple hours later and they were done. I actually spent some time in Indonesia studying Gamelan music though, so that's kind of why I was really drawn towards that sound. And as well, it's really easy to play because I just lay those on a soft egg foam, just a piece of foam, and then play it as opposed to a Gamelan instrument. It's quite a bit to actually bring.
Leah Roseman:
That's very interesting.
John Hadfield:
Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
So when was that time in Indonesia?
John Hadfield:
That was a long time ago. That was when I graduated 2000. It was the summer of 2001. I graduated from conservatory, and I was like, I cannot read music for two months or something. I went learn some music that I just wanted to be pushed and expanded and just go into a situation where I knew nothing and try to decipher what was happening.
Leah Roseman:
What was that experience like?
John Hadfield:
Yeah, that was a crazy experience. I went there for two months. There was upheaval in Jakarta at the time, their currency plummeted. I would literally just hang out, and I had a friend who had a Fulbright during that time period, and so he connected to me with a bunch of people, and I stayed in the jungle and took one or two lessons per day, practiced, transcribed what I was doing and swam in waterfalls, something like that. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Wow. I'm glad I asked about that.
John Hadfield:
That was good.
Leah Roseman:
This is Phase and Libration Part 1 (Music; album linked in show notes)
. So did you guys meet at the University of Nevada?
John Hadfield:
That's right, yeah.
Leah Roseman:
I was trying to figure out the connection, and I was looking at your bios. I was University of Nevada, university of Nevada.
Rachel Eckroth:
It was years ago, I mean, a lifetime ago. It's crazy how time flies, but that was in 1996 that we met.
Leah Roseman:
So is this your first major project together? Yeah, I
Rachel Eckroth:
Think so.
John Hadfield:
Yeah. I mean, other than my senior recital, yes, and I can only convince them to play on one tune, but yeah, this,
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, I mean, we reconnected just playing a gig with a French saxophonist about two years ago, so, so we both both lived in New York at the same time, and our paths were like this. I didn't really see John that much, but aware of what he was doing, and then he reached out to get me on this tour in France and a record. So that's how we decided to come up with this project.
Leah Roseman:
And John, you're still based in New York, but you spend time in Paris, is that right?
John Hadfield:
No, I'm more based in Paris, but I go to New York. I'm going to New York on Sunday. I have a real sort of back and forth existence right now.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. So Rachel, you came from this musical family. In fact, your brother's a jazz pianist too, right? So what was that growing up?
Rachel Eckroth:
Let's see. Well, my dad, when I was really young, he was a band director, and John has a similar story actually.
John Hadfield:
Yeah, my dad's a band director as well,
Rachel Eckroth:
But that was his side of the family. A lot of his brothers were doing that band director orchestra, and so it was just sort of a thing. We were always around music. So growing up, there's four kids in my family. We all took piano lessons, we all played other instruments and band and stuff like that. And I don't know, it was a regular suburban upbringing, but once my brother, he's a year older than me. Once we both started getting better and into jazz, then it became pretty competitive at that time because we both played the same instrument and one piano. And a lot of times as a pianist, we went to the same schools actually as well at college. And so there was always a little bit of competition trying to, he was a year older, so he was always in the top band and had to fight him for positions. But it was great. I really kind of enjoyed growing up in a music family because it was something different from the kids around me at school. It was just like I had this thing that I do and not a lot of kids were doing arts and stuff like that.
Leah Roseman:
Do you think it made it more viable career option because you could see different ways to be a musician?
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, absolutely. When I was, I don't know, about five, my parents were in a country band together, so we lived in Montana and they did a little tour at some point with their band, and we went around and we were super young. There were three of us at the time, but we stayed in a motel and they would take us to soundcheck, which would be a bar. And so just to see them up on stage and we'd be sitting in this place that we are not allowed in. It was just kind of cool and different, and I got to see what it's like to be a musician, I guess, or be a working musician.
Leah Roseman:
So many people I've interviewed, especially in the jazz world, there was this idea that you have to go to school, Berklee, or they got in but they couldn't afford it, this sort of thing. And there's these ideas of the top schools, but there's so many fantastic programs and mentors all around. What would you guys say about your experience at University of Nevada?
John Hadfield:
Yeah, my experience was really positive. We both had very nice scholarships too, honestly, and they were supportive financially. And I have a feeling that because of that, both of our sort of departments, me more in Percussion land and Rachel and Jazz band, it was a priority of the school, and so I felt supported, and yeah, I felt like it was a good environment during that time. I'm sure it probably still is, but yeah,
Rachel Eckroth:
Well, same thing for me, it was like I went there, we actually showed up, I think similar time, maybe you were there a little bit before me. I had a scholarship and I felt like I got a lot of opportunities that I might not have gotten at a really competitive school or something like that. And not to mention we were in Vegas, so I was able to actually work professionally while I was in school, a lot of the nights. So it was a really good formative time.
Leah Roseman:
Are there things you wish you'd known then as a young woman working, starting
Rachel Eckroth:
To being a woman mean? Yeah, but I think that's the same stuff that most women in the world go through, just how to stand up for yourself and stuff like that. But besides that, I wish I would have learned how to save money. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Let's talk about God particle. The first track on your album, is that a reference to the book?
Rachel Eckroth:
It's a reference to the particle. I think it's called the Higgs-Boson Particle, what it is. It was just kind of another reference to creation, religion, what's happening, where did we come from, what's going on? And I guess when I heard about this God particle, I don't know, 10 years ago, I was just like, how can you even find the most minute particle? I think that's what it is. It's like the creation particle or something like that. It's like, anyway, it was a really interesting thing to find out in my lifetime, and so that just stuck with me. The oh, God particle is a really cool thing. And so we actually recorded that song. We said, I told John just, let's just play something, you start it. And so he just tracked in the studio with, we didn't really have a song yet, so we just tracked drums and then took it home and made the song after the fact based on what he played.
John Hadfield:
Yeah, that was the last day of the record. The last day of the recording. We did three days in Athens. Yeah, we were just recording stuff. We just recorded drums and it built the song after the fact because Rachel has a really extensive synthesizer.
Rachel Eckroth:
I have a pretty nice setup
John Hadfield:
Yeah, museum.
just to create, but I guess in a funny way, it's, that was the starting point, which is the God particle is the starting point. The drum track was the starting point for that track. But yeah, I think what happened was we just came up with some chord changes and then just started building from there.
Leah Roseman:
You're about to hear a clip from God particle from the album, Speaking in Tongues. (Music)
So Rachel, I really, really enjoyed your solo album One Thank You, which came out last year, really, really beautiful, and I was hoping, if you're willing, it might be nice to include the track off of that as well, and we'll link it. So I really love the final track Light Sleeper.
Rachel Eckroth:
Thanks. That album is mostly improvisations, so I couldn't play it back to you on the piano, you know what I mean? So there were a couple on that album. There was a couple covers, but mostly it was just sitting down and just seeing what comes out. I guess that was the theme of last year, I'd been producing so much and playing. I play with an artist named St. Vincent, and it's a great gig, but we play the same thing all the time. So I guess that was my departure from having to be in a constraint and just to go in the studio with no plans was challenging, but also fun and cool. And I think those improvisation pieces, they're just like, it's a culmination of what I've heard throughout my life because nothing was a specific style. I was just kind of playing music.
Leah Roseman:
I was reading reviews listeners had left on Bandcamp, I think, and it was like, this is like Satie and this is like this. And I personally don't like to do that, but I see why it helps listeners find music as well.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, I don't necessarily play a lot of Satie, but of course when you hear something, it will influence you at some point.
Leah Roseman:
And do you kind of have a creative practice, especially when you're on tour, just to generate new ideas and to sort of refresh your mind?
Rachel Eckroth:
Actually, I do a lot of writing in the hotel rooms where I'm at right now. And so I think if I mix it up between projects, that keeps it fresh for me. So John and I are working on some tracks now, so we're doing remote stuff, which is more of an electronic based stuff. Then I just finished writing string orchestra arrangements. I'm doing different things all the time to keep it interesting.
Leah Roseman:
That's great. Do you have any other touring strategies to keep your mental health?
Rachel Eckroth:
Working out is a big one. Trying to eat real food is a good one. I just had microwave oatmeal, so not the best, but try to stay healthy and try to get outside. There's a lot of time spent in a hotel room, so we're on an airplane.
Leah Roseman:
You're about to hear Light Sleeper from One by Rachel Eckroth. That album of solo piano improvisations is linked on her website, which you'll find in the show notes of this podcast. (Music)
So John living in Paris, I'm curious, the jazz scene, I know it's historically been very vibrant there. Has the pandemic affected that, post pandemic?
John Hadfield:
I would say it's still pretty vibrant. Jazz in general has really celebrated here. That was one of the things that really surprised me when I first started coming over here. I recently did a television show where they were celebrating the top jazz artists in France and giving it awards, kind of like the Jazz Grammys or something. So it's just like it's part of the culture where they support the arts, and it's just, is the scene super vibrant? Yeah, it is. But lots of times now I just do. I am not really spending so much time in the smaller clubs like I used to or something. But yeah, I play around Europe. I just played in Switzerland last weekend. It's easy. Take the train for three hours. Yeah, so I played a club there, but I travel a lot as well.
Leah Roseman:
So Rachel, I mean, you have a lot of different ways you express yourself musically, including a singer. And when I was researching you, I found your early mentor. One of them was Dennis Rowland, who is a vocalist with the Count Basie Band.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, yeah. Do you know him? Do you know of him?
Leah Roseman:
I don't.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, so John met him when we were, yeah, I met
John Hadfield:
Just met him, right? Yeah,
Rachel Eckroth:
He's like a Phoenix mainstay. He's the man. He's a bit older now, but when I met him, I was about 15. He was already doing his thing out there. He was already big time. And he had toured, I guess, and made records with the Count Basie band at, I would say in the eighties. But I won some kind of little scholarship when I was in Phoenix in high school, and part of the, I guess prize was to go to the monthly Jazz Society party and go sit in with his band. And so I got to do that. I remember we played Take the A Train, and then after that, he would invite me to come and play at his gigs to sit in. So my dad would have to take me because I was 15. So he would take me to the clubs, and then I would go play my one or two songs and feel really happy about it. And it was great. It was great to be able to play with older professional musicians and feel what it's like to have to perform on the spot at that age. I had never played in bands before except for high school. So yeah, that's Dennis, and he's still doing it in Phoenix.
Leah Roseman:
And you're one of these people who collects vintage keyboards, I believe.
Rachel Eckroth:
I don't necessarily collect them, but I have them to play that. So yes, I have a Rhodes Mark 5. I have a Wurlitzer 120. You know what? I don't have, I am not going to say vintage because I don't have a ton of vintage, but I have a ton of vintage replicas, I guess you could say. So I think that's my only stuff. I have a Yamaha CP 70, which is vintage, and that's an electric grand piano. It's a monster. But yeah, I do. I have a Prophet and a Melotron and a couple Moogs, some, all kinds of stuff.
Leah Roseman:
Sounds like a collection.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, it is a collection. I'm trying to just get a full palette of colors to be able to work with. So my stuff doesn't always have one sound.
Leah Roseman:
I had Kait Dunton on this podcast, and she was saying how the prices have really gone up for those. And also, it's hard to find people to fix them if you can't fix it.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, that's what I do want to learn how to fix some of my things because it's a pain in the butt to have to take it. I think the closest guy, I live in Arizona right now, and the closest guy is in LA.
Leah Roseman:
No, I was just curious if that was an issue, because Kait was saying, yeah, you have to find people to fix them. And then I interviewed Pierre Chrétien up here in Ottawa, and he said, well, actually, he's been fixing them himself, and that's sort of a side business for him is fixing other people's keyboards. So I thought that's pretty smart.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, it is really smart. I definitely have replaced Rhodes' parts myself before, but that's the extent of what I can do, I think.
Leah Roseman:
Well, John, it was pointed out to me that you were on the great 9 Horses album, Strum, which was featured on this podcast when I interviewed Sara Caswell, and there's so many incredible layers to that. So I don't know exactly what tracks you're on, but it's such a cool project.
John Hadfield:
Well, thank you so much. Yeah, I did all those remotely, actually
Leah Roseman:
Yup.
John Hadfield:
In the studio in France, so yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I thought I was just going to do one, but then it worked well, and he sent some more, so Joe did. Yeah, I love that album though.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I really did.
John Hadfield:
And Sara, I worked with also with David Krakauer, and we did a different project called The Big Picture Together as well. She's lovely.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
John Hadfield:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, just a quick break from the episode. I wanted to let you know about some other episodes I’ve linked directly to this one, which I think may interest you, with: Ineke Vandoorn, Naomi Moon Siegel, Chuck Copenace, DeWitt Flemining Jr. and Lisa Pegher. It’s a joy to be able to bring these meaningful conversations to you, but this project costs me quite a bit of money and lots of time; please support this series through either my merchandise store or on my Ko-fi page; you’ll find the links in the show notes. For the merch, it features a unique design by artist Steffi Kelly and you can browse clothes, notebooks, mubs and more, everything printed on demand. On my Ko-fi page you can buy me one coffee, or every month. You’ll also find the links to sign up for my newsletter where you’ll get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Finally, if you’re finding this episode interesting, please text it to a friend. Thanks.
Let's talk about your recent Drum of Stories.
John Hadfield:
Yeah, that's the last record that I did. It's on Inner Circle Records, which is a record label that Johnny Gandelsman, who just won the MacArthur Award, runs. The catalyst for that, there's a percussionist named Colin Walcott who played in this group, Codona, and also another group called Oregon, which are jazz groups from the seventies and eighties, but he was actually killed. He played with Meredith Monk as well, and he was killed on tour with Oregon in Germany, and I don't know, I've always been a huge fan of his. I even subbed for John Hollenbeck for the Meredith Monk, for Meredith Monk performance once and heard stories about him. So I was really captivated by him. And it turned out that Nana Vasconselos, the other percussionist in Codona and him had a flight case in New York that was abandoned, so his instruments were in there. And so I bought some of those. And so that's kind of inspired the whole Drum of Stories because it's like I had this drum, I had these drums from both of them and some percussions instruments, and it just kind of like me imagining it's an inanimate object, but the stories that these things could tell, I just found that inspiring to actually have it and to have the case with his name tag with his address on it, it felt kind of special. It's still in the closet, honestly. It doesn't sound so amazing, but the story is really good.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah,
John Hadfield:
It's really particular. Yeah. So yeah, I did that. I recorded that in France as well, and it had some people, Ron Blake played on it, saxophone player, Kinan Azmet, clarinet player that I played with a bunch. Yeah, that's the most recent one.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I had a couple of Oregon LPs growing up, actually. I remember that band.
John Hadfield:
Oh, nice.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Well, and so you've been exploring electronics with drum, that's one of your things you've been doing.
John Hadfield:
Yeah, it's something I like to do. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, I've been exploring, it's like there's a sampler right here. You can't see the desk, but it's like, yeah, there's a bunch of stuff everywhere. Yeah, that's something I fascinated with. I definitely hear a similarity between, I mean, percussion can be percussion creates such abstract sounds that making the jump to an electronic, electronic music just seems completely normal to me. And actually Rachel and I both are interested in sometimes making the acoustic sound electronic, if you will. So yeah, so I like to do that and incorporate electronics with that. So it's kind of hard to tell where it starts and ends.
Leah Roseman:
When you were in lockdown and you couldn't perform with other people, did you get more into that?
John Hadfield:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I definitely got my home recording, my recording studio situation. Yeah, I spent way more, that's all I did. I think that's what we all did. I did some video concerts and remote recording sessions and everything, but, but it's something that really stayed with me, and I still, it's like I'll wake up in the morning and I will always go to my studio if I'm not on tour.
Leah Roseman:
And Rachel, you mentioned you touring with St. Vincent and some other big artists, so do you remember when everything came crashing to a halt?
Rachel Eckroth:
Yes, I do. At that time, I was working with Rufus Wainwright still, and basically a tour was canceled, so that was a bummer. I think after that, we did just a few online concerts for Jimmy Fallon, and we did a Grammy's performance that we recorded up on a mountain in the middle of LA, which was pretty cool actually. So that was the extent of that after Covid started, and then as everyone, I became a better engineer, and we all did, I think everyone in the world learned how to use a microphone, and so it was a similar thing. I was creating tracks every day, filming myself, collaborating with people online. So it was a good time and a bad time. We all just figured out how to survive, and in that, I actually created, I think I made a few records in that span of a year and a half.
Leah Roseman:
And since you're often playing really big spaces now, what was the feeling going back to those really big crowds?
Rachel Eckroth:
Well, at first, when I started up with St. Vincent, we went on tour. We were still masked up and everything was a Covid test every day, and there was no guests allowed backstage. We couldn't really talk to, we couldn't associate with people outside of our little bubble. When we were on tour, it was like, if anyone got sick, the whole tour would be canceled. So there was that kind of thing. But going back into large spaces, it is funny because I noticed when I play in a tiny bar or something, or when I played at Madison Square Garden in some way, it's the same thing. It's like you get into this zone of playing that you don't really see how massive or how small the place is. It's just like you're just making music. So it just becomes the same thing to me, although it's really, it's fun to do those big gigs because they come with nice perks and stuff like that, but it's really, at some point, it's just kind of the same thing. You're just giving music to people.
Leah Roseman:
Well, something I found interesting, John, is you had performed with Kenny Werner, the author of Effortless Mastery, which I read along with lots of other people. So did you ever talk to him about the psychological of performing or were you aware of that aspect of his work?
John Hadfield:
I was aware of that, and actually where I first did meet him was NYU, I was teaching at NYU. He was around, and so we would play occasionally. I would hang out at the building a lot, but then a great guitar player, Gilad Hekselman, recommended me to be in one of his bands. And so I was in this group with Kenny Saxophone player, Billy Drewes, Gilad and Johannes Weidenmueller. And so we would play, but honestly, we would never talk about anything. It was more like the information was transmitted during. By the act of doing, which on some level is kind of, it's been it since I've read the book. But yeah, I felt like that was always his sort of mission statement, if you will, or something. It was more like the act of doing, that's where I learned what he was about. He is a lot of fun to improvise with, especially at that time. It was a while ago. It was a pretty formative period of my sort of development as an improviser, and it was like he gave a lot, and you got confidence from that, so it was nice.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
John Hadfield:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
We were talking a little bit before about giving to the audience, and Rachel was saying she didn't feel a difference between small rooms and big rooms. Do you have any performance anxiety, John? Are you very comfortable?
John Hadfield:
No, but I would say listening to that, I was like, wow, she, that's great. For me, I would say that I've played some massive venues as well, but I always had the most profound musical experiences in smaller clubs or smaller venues. I feel like I just always feel a little more, especially if I'm sweating and people are really close to you, the intimacy of the whole thing. It's definitely, it's a different type of energy, if you will. There's a jazz club that we've played at a couple of times in Germany called, Unterfahrt, and I love to play there. It's also underground, and people can be really energetic, and I don't know, that's, I've had more sort of profound experiences there than say Carnegie Hall or something. No diss Carnegie Hall, but that's just been my experience.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, it's a different feel. And Rachel, this is going back a while, but kind of relevant with what's going on now in your country. So you were assistant music director for the Women's March in 2017. Do you want to speak to that experience?
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, sure. I was alongside helping Toshi Reagon do the thing, so she was in charge of all the music, and my job was just to facilitate some of the rehearsals, and I was the pianist, so there were a lot of cues I had to deal with from artists that got up on stage. But the whole thing, I mean, it was a really cool thing. I had no idea really how massive it was going to be. We showed up in New York and waited somewhere in Times Square for the bus that we took down to dc. It was super cold out, and we went down there and it was very early, and we showed up and a bunch of women playing music, and it was great. It was really cool. It was fun to have the artists up on stage and all the speakers, A lot of wacky stuff happened there, Arab, just in terms of who was going on stage for how long some speakers would get up and then have to get cut off because they were taking so long. But it was, the energy of the whole thing was really cool, and I'm all about the movement, and so it was an honor to do it
Leah Roseman:
And to be able to use your musical skills to help with activism.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, I mean, that's about all I've got, so I'm happy to help.
Leah Roseman:
You mentioned when you're on tour, you're writing a lot, so I assume you're writing music, but do you also do other kinds of writing or other kind of creative outlets?
Rachel Eckroth:
No, not necessarily. I'm doing all kinds of music projects. Occasionally I'll be able to sit down and write lyrics and work on that stuff. I'm sort of not in that frame of mind right now, so I think I'm just kind of living life and waiting for some stories to happen so I can write about them. But right now it's kind of like I'm just working on trying to work on larger scale projects, so orchestra, big band, stuff like that.
Leah Roseman:
This is a project you did a long time ago, but you were the keyboardist for the short-lived Meredith Viera show.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah. Yeah. That was a whole interesting thing doing television. John knows he did a lot of that too. But you know what? It was a great thing when it happened because I was living in New York and I was kind of having that a financial crisis, I guess, just being a musician in New York and trying to survive, and I was kind of living on my credit card, and it wasn't going well at the time. So I, I did the audition, I got the gig eventually, and was able to just get a good footing, and it's really helped. It is funny how that works. It's like I was able to get on solid ground financially. Not to say I was so loaded or something, but I was not in debt. And that just takes so much off of your chest that you're able to create music and you're able to function, you're able to pay your bills. It really is a big deal, especially in New York when you're just, so many people are stuck just trying to pay rent, and they don't have time to really do their art. And it was great for that purpose. And so in the last 10 years, it's really given me, I guess, a little push to be able to do what I want to do.
Leah Roseman:
This is a clip from Andromeda, from the album, Speaking in Tongues.(Music)
Did you both feel compelled to go to New York to kind make it as jazz artist?
Rachel Eckroth:
Yes. John, you want to answer that?
John Hadfield:
Yeah, sure. I feel like, so after UNLV, I went to the Kansas City Conservatory and got a Master's degree there. And so I knew when that was over, I was either going to go to LA or to New York. I had a girlfriend in LA at the time, but that became really complicated. So I speak to New York, kind of, not joking, but we had another mutual friend, a wonderful trombone player who was living in New York with his boyfriend, and they had a closet, literally, and that's where I lived. I rented it. There was enough room for a twin bunk bed, and I put my drums underneath it. It was great. I mean, oh, yeah. And we actually, we both worked in a coffeeshop.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, that, I guess, I think it was my first year. It was 2001. I moved there in January, 2001, kind of not knowing a lot of people, but my friend Tia Fuller was going to move, and we were going to be roommates six or seven months later. So I was just surviving and trying to figure out how to be in New York and meet people and stuff. And then John and I both worked at this little coffee shop in Midtown, or Chelsea, I guess. And then
John Hadfield:
Chelsea
Rachel Eckroth:
Tia moved to Jersey City and we moved in together, and the next day was when the World Trade Center happened. So she got quite a shock of moving to New York, but that was just a crazy year. I was 24 when I moved there. So it was just a lot of madness and confusion and good times as well.
Leah Roseman:
Are there things about the city that you've changed your mind about over the years?
Rachel Eckroth:
I like to say that, I mean, this is true for me, but I like to say that New York, the move to New York is kind of for the young people to go and learn and make it and just get your feet in the fire. And there's a certain point where everybody starts going, oh man, I would love to live somewhere comfortable. And so a lot of us, I think a lot of people move away when they get into their forties or whatever. But yeah, I think it is just the need to be there has changed for me.
Leah Roseman:
So John, I wanted to ask you about the Silkroad Ensemble. You've done quite a bit with them.
John Hadfield:
Yeah, sure. Yeah. I'm not sure when that was, but at one point in time, Carnegie Hall was offering these Fellows. You could be a Fellow. And so I auditioned and it was to be a fellow with the Silkroad Ensemble, and so I went to Tanglewood, participated in that. We did a bunch of new music, and then after that, I started playing as a member, did a couple of projects, did a record when I played on one of Yo-Yo's records. And yeah, I did that for a while. I don't really do it so much anymore, but it was a pretty formative experience, and I had a lot of friends who still do it or have done it. It's sort of this kind of, it's a community.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. So any highlights from performing with them?
John Hadfield:
I played Colbert with Yo-Yo. That was pretty fun also. That was early on, and yeah, it was just another one of these after that. It gave me a lot of confidence. It felt great. It was like, okay, this is a really, yeah, it just gave me a lot of confidence. Also, he's a really wonderful person. He's really encouraging. He also, yeah, I dunno. He was always just really encouraging to me, and I appreciated that. And the Silkroad Ensemble currently, you could say that the whole concept of it is kind of, I don't want to say it's dated now, but it's changed as our perspective has changed. White guys playing world music, it's kind of changed. Then we have this other thing where it's like, oh, can you only have, the politics, identity? Can you only do only African-American play jazz? Do only Indian people play the tabla? You know what I mean? It's like, does this, Yo-Yo once said he's of Chinese descent, born in Paris, playing a European instrument. So I feel like this kind of welcoming and approach was grateful and good for me to hear, but I don't really know if I can articulate clearly what I mean about a change. But I definitely feel like it has changed though, the whole identity of music and what that offers in the last 10 or 15 years, there's been a shift.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I've seen that as well.
John Hadfield:
Also, look, I benefit from that on some levels. When I moved to France two years ago and people were like, oh my God, the jazz drummer from New York is here. I'm like, that's me. It's like all these people, the way you're perceived. It's like I benefit from that sort of identity association now.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
John Hadfield:
Yeah. I don't know.
Leah Roseman:
So you mentioned there's an upcoming album. You started working on more stuff together?
John Hadfield:
Oh, Rachel and I,
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
John Hadfield:
No, she's nonstop. It's like, no, Speaking of Tongue, it's coming out on February 28th, I guess. It's already been released by the time everybody hears this. And we also have a more electronic based project called The Saints of Paris, and so that's going to be released in two weeks.
Leah Roseman:
So I haven't heard that yet, but it will already be out when this podcast is that.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, we, that project is like a side, it's almost a fun project just to have tracks that are streaming, honestly. But we're trying to be creative with it and put stuff out every month. So it's just kind of an ongoing thing.
John Hadfield:
Consistent making things.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah, I think,
John Hadfield:
Yeah, it's a little lighter than Speaking in Tongues.
Rachel Eckroth:
Yeah. And yeah, I think as a duo, we're focused on just getting touring, going and doing concerts and stuff like that.
John Hadfield:
We just did our first tour in Arizona, Colorado, and Louisiana. That was a lot of fun. And then we will have another, we do some East Coast dates in March. We'll play at New Blue in Jersey.
Rachel Eckroth:
It's called the Statuary in Jersey City,
John Hadfield:
The Statuary, and then in Rizzoli Bookstore. Yeah,
Rachel Eckroth:
It's the seventh, eighth, and 9th of March. And then we have a Europe tour in early May.
Leah Roseman:
Okay, awesome. I thought it might be fun to leave people. Another really favorite track of mine is Blood Moon. Do you want to speak to the track a little bit?
John Hadfield:
That one also kind of a bit of an additive thing. Yeah. We recorded with the bass player that we actually, he's amazing and we love him. I love him. He's an amazing musician, Petros Klampanis. But that being said, we also really wanted to make sure that this project was a duo. That was our goal. We both have toured a lot. We did a trio tour also, which was amazing and fun, but we really wanted to just have something that was the two of us hop on a train in Europe, keep it simple, not schlepping a ton of stuff. After we recorded the acoustic piano and drums, we did record a ton of synthesizers, which complicated the matter, but the initial goal was just to have a really transportable project that we'd enjoyed doing. We wanted to make it easy. So when we recorded this, I guess we did use this sort of electronic bass track and yeah, it's great. I love this track. Rachel takes a killing solo on it.
Rachel Eckroth:
It was a song you had written. Right? And then what do we do? I mean, we just, overdubbed sounds on it, and I played piano on it, and it's really fun to play because the time signature increases shifting and then goes back, it's like 3, 4, 4, 5, 4. You tell me
John Hadfield:
4, 5, 6.
Yeah. So the title is the sort of reference to the fact that Christopher Columbus in Jamaica, he used the foretelling. They had an almanac, so he used the foretelling at the time of when the Blood moon was to manipulate people so they would think he had powers because they were shipwrecked and they could not get food or water, and so he wanted to prove that he was whatever, godly. So that's kind of the same reference. Clearly, I'm not a fan of this behavior, but I found it really, I found it a shocking story, honestly. So that's where the title came from.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Yeah. Interesting. You are about to hear an excerpt from Blood Moon from the album, Speaking in Tongues.(Music)
Well, such a wonderful project and so inspiring to meet you both. Thank you. Thanks so much for this today.
John Hadfield:
Thank you so much. Thanks for having us. We really appreciate it, and good luck with all your future podcasts.
Leah Roseman:
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at leahroseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. All the links are in the show notes. The podcast theme music was written by Nick Kold. Have a wonderful week.
