Tal Yahalom Interview
Below is the transcript to my interview with Tal Yahalom. The link button takes you to the podcast, video and show notes with all the links
Tal Yahalom is an award-winning jazz guitarist and composer who has just released a compelling quintet album, Mirror Image with refreshingly unique instrumentation: violin, cello, percussion, sax and flute and both nylon-string and electric guitar. You’ll be hearing excerpts from the album and hear about Tal’s creative process and collaborators including percussioninst Rogerio Boccato and David Leon on sax and flute. Tal told me about some great advice he got from Pat Metheny, whom he met when Tal won the Detroit Jazz Festival National Guitar Competition, and the invaluable guidance of key mentors throughout his education and career. Tal recently came back from musically immersive travels in Brazil and Argentina, and it was inspiring to hear about his experiences their as well as hear about several of his collaborators, including his band KADAWA, and we’re featuring a track from their new album as well. Towards the end of this interview, Tal shared some personal reflections on his new duo with vocalist Danielle Wertz, and some very wise insights into student-centered learning, which I think apply quite broadly, not just to music. Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on all the podcast platforms (see link button above)
Tal Yahalom:
Even things like I'm a bad student" at the basics of it, "I don't have discipline". Well, maybe you don't have discipline for these and these things because you just don't enjoy them, so maybe don't do them. I really try to show people that you need to focus on the things that are important for what you want to achieve. You don't need to check all the boxes all the time. I think it's something a little bit, I would say, toxic, in jazz education in some way, or even classical, I don't know that side. But they tell you, "you have to know all of these tunes and you have to learn how to transpose all of these things" and you build this impossible set of skills that you're supposed to have at all times, and then you're just pursuing these check marks instead of going with your curiosity. And I really don't think it's a healthy approach to developing musicians, so I try to get away from that.
Leah Roseman:
Hi, you’re listening to Conversations with Musicians, with Leah Roseman, which I hope inspires you through the personal stories of a fascinating diversity of musical guests. Tal Yahalom is an award-winning jazz guitarist and composer who has just released a compelling quintet album, Mirror Image with refreshingly unique instrumentation: violin, cello, percussion, sax and flute and both nylon-string and electric guitar. You’ll be hearing excerpts from the album and hear about Tal’s creative process and collaborators including percussioninst Rogerio Boccato and David Leon on sax and flute. Tal told me about some great advice he got from Pat Metheny, whom he met when Tal won the Detroit Jazz Festival National Guitar Competition, and the invaluable guidance of key mentors throughout his education and career. Tal recently came back from musically immersive travels in Brazil and Argentina, and it was inspiring to hear about his experiences their as well as hear about several of his collaborators, including his band KADAWA, and we’re featuring a track from their new album as well. Towards the end of this interview, Tal shared some personal reflections on his new duo with vocalist Danielle Wertz, and some very wise insights into student-centered learning, which I think apply quite broadly, not just to music. Like all my episodes, you can watch this on my YouTube channel or listen to the podcast on all the podcast platforms, and I’ve also linked the transcript to my website Leahroseman.com .It’s a joy to bring these inspiring episodes to you every week, and I do all the many jobs of research, production and publicity. Have a look at the description of this episode, where you’ll find all the links, including timestamps and different ways to support this podcast!
Hi Tal, thanks so much for joining me here today.
Tal Yahalom:
Hey, of course. Thanks for having me.
Leah Roseman:
I've really been enjoying your new album Mirror Image, which we're going to be focusing on today. I was lucky to get a preview copy, but it will have just gone out when this podcast is released, so that's great. People, they can click right on the link and go to the album.
Tal Yahalom:
Definitely. Thanks so much.
Leah Roseman:
So this is a departure for you with the orchestration use of strings and you're using both nylon and electric guitars on it as well.
Tal Yahalom:
Yes, definitely. This project was kind of born from that desire to play with strings. I always kind of felt like as a guitarist, especially a jazz guitarist, but maybe even as a whole, we don't really get to play in a section like horn players. It's much more common for them in a jazz context, to feel that blend of a section, breathe together, blend sounds together like that, and as a guitarist, you're not really considered a string instrument in the classical way of thinking. So I guess I kind of wanted to create my own context for that and be able to play the guitar in a similar way to how string players would play, which I'm really attracted to. So that textural thinking kind of got me started on this project, and it definitely was at some point always also a place where I could bring in the nylon thing and do things that are a bit more acoustic in nature, which I think I'm very attracted to in the core of my sound. I think a lot of the times when I'm at home practicing, I actually find myself leaning more towards nylon string and acoustic things, and I think strings are part of that appeal to me also. Yeah,
Leah Roseman:
There's a great range on this album, but a couple of tunes and we'll get to them, to me, it's in that area which is closer to classical contemporary classical music.
Tal Yahalom:
Yes, totally, totally. I'm curious which ones were the ones that
Leah Roseman:
The one that's, KIM.
Tal Yahalom:
KIM, yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. For example, talking about textures that completely pizzicato three first three minutes of the track. That was something that I was really proud of the result we got, and I dunno why for some reason when I hear strings, I think I tend to hear a lot more pizzicato than most people. A lot of people imagine this lush textures that I love, but as something maybe more, especially in the jazz context, something more in the background that kind of thickens out the sound. And I think the way I wanted to think about it is a lot more involved and a lot more active, and that tune in particular was kind of committing to this, like you say, maybe more contemporary classical thing of a slowly developing theme with very odd repetitions, with very strange meter changes. It was kind of my way of maybe creating an environment that's based on groove and a lot of repetition that you can hook yourself into, but at the same time mess with the listener in a way to not know when the next thing is going to glitch to the side and when the development is coming.
That was really tricky for us to actually put together because if you would see the chart of that piece, it's insane. It's like seven repeats on this first bar and then five repeats and then three repeats and then you skip and then four repeats. I really wanted to make it unpredictable in this way.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, it's one of the track, I think I had to go back to get it. I really enjoyed it once I'd gotten into it, so we'll be putting a short excerpt so people are just going to get a flavor of it.
Tal Yahalom:
Amazing.
Leah Roseman:
But I encourage them to check out the whole thing.
Tal Yahalom:
That's great.
Leah Roseman:
This is a short clip of KIM. (music)
What really grabbed me right away was actually your first track Prelude, this kind of baroque feel and kudos to the string players you hired Ledah Finck Violinist and Irene Han Cellist.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, that track for sure. It felt to me like I was kind of writing almost like a chorale type of thing, especially that second section maybe reminds me more of romantic stuff that I like to listen to, especially Ravel is a huge inspiration to me. If I can get to 2% of the compositional quality that he had, I will be very happy. But it's definitely a track that, it's funny actually you mentioned that because that's the first track we ended up recording also in the studio. I was planning to record a different one, but there was some trouble with the amp and whatever. So I was like, okay, let's just do the nylon tracks. And I think that track just starting with that and having something that is very structured, it's all through-composed. I'm improvising over a section of it, but it's all through-composed very simple, but more based on the breaths and the movement together. So I think starting from that eventually in the recording session also helped us set up the mood of how we breathe together and connect to the sound. And it's something that I think I wanted to give the listeners of the album. Also, just that sense of introducing the ensemble in this way of starting from the guitar in kind of a soloistic way, and then just introducing gradually what this sound of this group is. So that's why we kind of started that way. And the second track introduces the percussion. So that was kind of the thing in mind.
Leah Roseman:
This is a clip of Prelude (Music).
It is a really thoughtful set list, and I know artists put so much into the conception of an album, which listeners don't always appreciate because they're using streaming platforms often. And I'm curious as you release this, I know you're doing a live show with the band, but are you going to do any listening parties?
Tal Yahalom:
That's a really good idea. I mean, I actually have not had that planned. A friend actually suggested to host one, which will be very cool. And I do hope that people take the time to listen through the whole thing. It's something that I still as a listener, really care for. A lot of times, let's say when I meet new people, new musicians, a lot of the times when I ask them what they're listening to, they send me a specific track. And I always like, no. This album, I'm obsessed with listening through albums many, many times and we do curate and experience with the order of the album. And it took me a long time to figure out. So I hope people will connect to it in that way and will listen through, especially because this music to me, a lot of it is kind of intended to be in a meditative kind of space. So if people can find the time to do that and really sit with what these sounds are, what the feeling of each piece is, then I think it's worthwhile. It's just hard to get us to do that, all of us to have an hour to listen to an album.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I think that's why there's this growing popularity for these live listening parties and I mean in person because it's a very cool thing that used to happen in the 1960s and seventies then.
Tal Yahalom:
Right, right. So you experienced a lot of artists doing this recently?
Leah Roseman:
No, I talked to actually just one person recently who did it, and she was saying how positive it was and somebody I know who lives in Europe was saying that she was going to some of these listening parties and how great it was, and she's in her twenties. So I was thinking about it and I noticed people are doing them online, but I was thinking what a great idea it is to do live.
Tal Yahalom:
I agree, I agree. I think online, I mean it's a beautiful thing, but to do it live would be awesome. I think just the artist themselves would need to, for me, I think it's a really exposed experience to just sit in a room in silence with other people listening to my music as I'm not performing it. That's a very new thing when you're performing it, you're so involved in the making of the thing, but to just sit there and be like, I know this record too well. I know all the little quirks and whatever and mixing thoughts and this and this, but it'll be awesome to get actual direct feedback in the moment like that.
Leah Roseman:
So on this album, you have Chorinho for Tati, and I believe that's a family connection.
Tal Yahalom:
Is it?
Leah Roseman:
Is it not? Okay,
Tal Yahalom:
It's not a family connection, but what the info you have, I'm curious.
Leah Roseman:
Well, I know it's a traditional Brazilian thing, and I know you went on this recent trip Brazilia and Argentina, so I wondered if somehow,
Tal Yahalom:
Right, right. Okay. So definitely that trip has some family connection, but it's actually the Argentinian side and not the Brazilian side. Also, just to say that piece was written by an Armenian pianist, actually that's the only non-original on the record. His name is Vardan Ovsepian, and he wrote it for Tatiana Parra, which is an amazing vocalist that sings that duo with him. And a friend of mine introduced this piece to me in the pandemic, and I couldn't get enough of it, so it was clear that I had to do something of an arrangement for it. And he was kind enough to be like, wow, okay, yeah, go for it, and whatever. Yeah, I have I guess 25% South American blood, which now I'm very proud of because I also see how it connects to a lot of areas of my life recently in different ways. My grandfather was born in Buenos Aires and he moved to Israel when he was 24. So basically his whole upbringing was as an Argentinian. And I also know from my mom and her experiences with him and the whole family actually, they went there on delegation for two years when she was growing up with her siblings. And my grandfather was very Argentinian. He was a proud Argentinian. And the more I kind of think about him and I grow as an adult and I explore different things. And now with this first visit I ever did there and got to see the nature of the place and his apartment that we still have family that lives there and very special, I realized how much he was connected to that place. And my mom always used to say that when he would visit there, he would lift a little bit off the ground. He would just feel more alive.
And I think some sides of my personality are very related to him and this culture because we were hanging out as a family at his house all the time at my grandparents' house, and that's where all the family hangouts, meals, conversations would happen. So even the cultural way that we would be as a family, I guess is tied somehow to that culture or asado and just having food for hours and hanging out in the backyard. But that tune, you mentioned Chorinho for Tati, is more of a Brazilian influence. And the past, I would say three, four years, I've been taking that study very, very seriously, which also led to this trip I just did for a month and a half. I was a month in Brazil, in Rio, in Sao Paulo, and then two and a half weeks in Buenos Aires. And it was mostly to just learn about it from the ground where the music lives, feel it for real, how it is in the culture in the day to day.
And for example, Rogerio Boccato who plays percussion on the record is Brazilian. And he has been a huge force in helping me get deeper into this music and understanding it. And also an accordion player, Vitor Gonçalves that we play a lot together with Rogerio and other Brazilian musicians who live here have really helped me get deeper into it and actually learning what Samba is and what Choro is. And it's been amazing to connect to that side. I think that music these days for me, it's really, really alive and I'm addicted to it in some ways.
Leah Roseman:
So did these friends in Brooklyn and New York connect you with friends in Brazil? So when you went there, you had these connections?
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, I feel extremely lucky about how the trip in Brazil played out, honestly, because I got to hang out with musicians that I think a lot of people would not necessarily have access to or encounter. So they definitely connected me to some people. For example, Rogerio connected me in Sao Paulo to this guitar player that's called Gian Correa, who is a seven string player, plays a lot of Choro. And I sent him a message and he just invited me to a just jam session that they were doing at a house. Apparently it was the party of the end of a guitar course that he was giving, and there were people that were traveling from all over the world to hang out with him this whole weekend. So I met them and there was this amazing accordion player there, Mestrino, who's very well known there, plays a lot of, so I got to meet them and play with them out of the blue.
I never met them in my life, but 10 minutes after I walk in, we were playing tunes together and they were super welcoming and other people from here connected me to musicians in Rio that I ended up having a New Years party at one of their houses and met tons of musicians that then kind of became community. Honestly, in these two weeks, I saw the same musicians maybe six, seven times sometimes, and I went to their shows, we hung out at their houses later. We just played. And I feel like having that proximity and seeing how they interact with one another and really trying to jump in there and immersing myself in how they do things, it's been crazy. I felt like my playing is improving just by witnessing that. You know what I mean?
Leah Roseman:
And I was curious, although you're so accomplished and such a professional yet, it must have felt a little bit like being a student again, being with these people, playing some unfamiliar music
Tal Yahalom:
Completely. I was really tripping before going on this trip. I was talking to some Brazilian friends from here, and I take things very seriously and very deeply in the sense of honoring the music and learning it, whatever it is I'm doing. So I think the two, three weeks leading to the trip, I was like, I need to learn all the tunes and I need to learn how to dance faja. I need to be part of the culture. They need to think I'm Brazilian, and of course it's not going to be possible, and that's okay. I had a friend of mine that lives here and he's from Rio, and he told me something very relaxing. He was like, man, those people would be happy that you know two or three songs that they know. And then when they hear how you play them, they will get a lot out of it too. So it'll be refreshing for them to hear your voice in it. And I think it gave me a little bit more confidence, but I was definitely in every moment I was there, I try to step into it gradually and see what's common, how they communicate when they play, what kind of room do people take. And I think the main thing I learned from it, besides a lot of things about the styles and grooves and techniques, the main thing I realized that was very special and different is how humble and how communal everything was. And I felt that when they were playing, each musician was so in touch with all of the surroundings, the other musicians, the audience, the energy of the thing that it was a lot more about just enjoying the energy of doing this thing that is part of our culture together than it is to play what I know or take space in this way. It's not about that. It's about creating a space that we are all participating in. And I think for me, it was this reminder of like, oh, that's why we make music. That's the essence of it really. So
Leah Roseman:
Beautiful.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
This is a clip from Chorinho for Tati (Music)
And you were able to borrow some instruments as well?
Tal Yahalom:
Yes, I was very lucky. I traveled with my nylon string because I wanted to be able to jump into situations acoustically, and that was really helpful. But I borrowed the electric guitars both in Sao Paulo for some gigs ahead and then in Buenos Aires for a lot of gigs ahead. So it's really crazy how we have this musician community abroad that once you connect, even if it's just on Instagram, things can happen very, very organically. And people were super generous with me on that end. My parents are always shocked by this thing of, you go anywhere and you just can tap into this thing and play together and have friends right away. So that's the privilege of, I think being a musician, you don't travel like a tourist, you are of course, but you just immediately can tap into something that's happening culturally. So that was really nice. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And in terms of the language beyond music, with Spanish and Portuguese?
Tal Yahalom:
Oh man. I mean, I was not prepared for the Portuguese side of things. Spanish, I can speak a fair amount, and Buenos Aires was a relief in that way. I could understand what's going on, listening, I could comprehend a lot of stuff, but wow, Portuguese kicked my ass. It's such a beautiful language, but I was hoping it would be closer to Spanish in some ways. But there are so many different sounds and so many different accents depending on where the people come from. So a lot of the times I was just feeling lucky I could play because otherwise who knows? And just being patient and trying to speak as much Spanish or Porteñol they call it just like a mix of the two, and it sort of worked. I didn't feel like I could express my whole personality, but I think our energy comes through even if we don't say that much. So I think that somehow worked.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, Hymn for Tomorrow, back to your album, I understand it was a long birthing process.
Tal Yahalom:
Yes, for real.
Leah Roseman:
And beautiful string arrangements in that too, by the way.
Tal Yahalom:
Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, that one, going back to the meditative aspect of things and the cyclical things that I was trying to write, I had the first part, the guitar part for that first section. So in 5/8, 5/4, just a consistent kind of strumming pattern with some voice leading that I found. And I really loved it, but I didn't know what goes along with it. I didn't know if there was another part. I didn't know if it needed a melody. I just knew that this part feels really good to play. But then anything else that I tried to put into it, I was like, no, it's not good enough. It's not giving me the impact I wanted. And it's funny because that one just ended up working out on a deadline. I knew that I had a show before the recording, so I was like, enough, this tune needs a melody. I'm going to sit for two hours and just sing different melodies and kind of sculpt it very, very, very slowly. And I think I also was reminded in that moment of advice that Guillermo Klein, who is an amazing Argentinian pianist composer that I took a composition workshop with before the pandemic. And actually a lot of the music was born after that workshop too. So he's a big influence in many ways. He was talking about this tune that had all this rhythmic complexity in the accompaniment, and it already had a lot going for it. And then he said, I just needed a simple melody to tie all these things together that doesn't get in the way, but gets this feeling across.
And I think that's what I was looking for at the end for this first section. So when I finally found it, and I found a way to also write it out in time in a way that felt like someone was singing, but it wasn't on a grid, let's say it was more floaty. When I was able to do that, I was like, okay, this is great. And for the second part, I had other plans. Initially I was really intellectualizing it and I was like, okay, what if I take the five eights and I make them this, and then I write this harmonic thing and it just didn't go anywhere. And at some point I arrived at this utter tonality that the second part of the song lands on, and I just started playing this heavy quarter notes and moving some voices around and came up with this melody that is very, very diatonic, very simple, but always harmonized in different ways. And I think that also kind of birthed the song title in the end because that part for me, there was that feeling of the hymn and something that is very holding on to hope that the sensation gave me. So it was very clear.
Leah Roseman:
You're about to hear an excerpt from Hymn for Tomorrow (Music)
And actually the album title Mirror Image and also the album art I was curious about. It's very beautiful.
Tal Yahalom:
Thank you. Yeah, that's Linnea Lieth. She's an amazing artist from Berlin that we collaborated for the first time. And yeah, it's been an interesting process. I mean, it's always hard for me with titles and also with artwork because it is such a big part of what you're presenting. It's like the first encounter you have with the music. And I think Mirror Image came out pretty clearly at some point because of the nature of just how the music feels. And I think what I would want to give the listeners an experience, which is just a space to reflect on things and stay in for a while and just see what comes up. I think when we play these compositions live as a band, and when I wrote it, that's kind of the process that's happening internally. But it was also kind of like a hint at the compositional process that was happening in a lot of these tunes where I would write one thing, KIM is a very good example of it.
I wrote the first line and then the second part is just a hocket of that thing. It is displaced by an eighth note. So a lot of things became kind of inversions or opposites of one another Dusk on Landwehr Canal. The last tune is another example of it where the string parts, they play the same pitch collection a lot of the times, but in different directions and different ranges. They then kind of get this interesting rub. So it was also kind of a hint of how the music came to be. And then the album artwork, it was a combo of a lot of things. I think we talked about the environment in which I wrote it in, which was actually funnily enough, a lot in Berlin on a trip. So this artist actually knew the places which I composed the pieces at. And that bridge idea came from one of those settings of the places that I actually wrote it in. And water was a big element also in how the music feels and certain themes that canal the boat, those are all places in Berlin actually, that I wrote the music at. So I knew I wanted to have these two elements involved and something that reflects back at you to represent the title. And we just somehow ended up with this cool image of walking that path and being confronted with something that is kind of otherworldly and encompassing, like a wave coming at you and you're not quite sure if it's going to wash you over and you kind of in that moment maybe think about yourself and things that you've gone through and see yourself in the water, but in a very nonconventional way. It's not still water. It's not calm water. So I think that's how it came to be. It was very interesting to work on.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. Do you sometimes get inspiration from other art forms?
Tal Yahalom:
Yes. I think that it doesn't necessarily come directly into the music as a tool. Thinking about it in this way, maybe it's something a little bit more emotional of what, I dunno, like a film or a book would make me feel. But I dunno if I would translate it in a direct way to, I dunno, a technique or a compositional thing or whatever. I think there are common themes. I think for example, impressionism in music and in painting, I'm drawn to it in a very similar way. And I think that those paintings, a lot of them were also some of the references for the artwork. And it does come into play, but maybe not in a super, super direct way. I think for me it's a lot more about human interaction and psychological emotional processing and thinking about different spiritual philosophical things maybe that I'm engaging with at the time. But yeah, not necessarily maybe taking from different art forms in that way, not in a very conscious way, at least. I'm sure it's there.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah.
Hi, just a quick break from the episode. I wanted to let you know about some other episodes I’ve linked directly to this one, which I think may interest you, with Marc Van Vugt, Ariel Bart, Gilad Weiss, Edison Herbert, Roddy Ellias and Daniel Ramjattan. It’s a joy to be able to bring these meaningful conversations to you, but this project costs me quite a bit of money and lots of time; please support this series through either my merchandise store or on my Ko-fi page; you’ll find the links in the show notes. For the merch, it features a unique design by artist Steffi Kelly and you can browse clothes, notebooks, mugs and more, everything printed on demand. On my Ko-fi page you can buy me one coffee, or every month. You’ll also find the links to sign up for my newsletter where you’ll get access to exclusive information about upcoming guests. Finally, if you’re finding this episode interesting, please text it to a friend. Thanks.
And it's interesting t hearing you talk about your composition process. It seems very much like you have engaged both sides of your brain, the intuitive and the analytical. Is that a conscious thing or
Tal Yahalom:
I think that maybe sometimes the conscious, the analytical brain, it hits a block or at least I feel emotionally that, okay, well, I thought I'm going to do this, but now it's not happening. So obviously something else has to come into play and you need to kind of admit for yourself, okay, I set out to do this, but it just doesn't feel right. So I think it's always this dialogue of what is it now? I thought I knew, but what is it now? And it was really cool with the music on this record. It started from, most of it started from very technical things, and a lot of it was actually just without the instrument too. It was just concepts on paper, one melody thing, or I remember this tune, the Boat Drifts Still, I was walking through a park and I just started hearing these two layers with the bass and the melody going around it.
And I was just like, okay, what is it? What is it? What is it? What's the meter? What's the melody? So it already kind of formulated that way, and then I guess I did bring more intellect into the development of it, but the seed was very intuitive. I think it's always a play between the two. I think whatever gets you going and is a catalyst, go for it. If it just technical, go for it. If it's sitting with the guitar and seeing what inspiration strikes and it actually works, then go for it too. But I think the two have to be present, but when something is not quite accurate. So I think that's the main thing to trust.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. I was also thinking, I mean, you're a great improviser and of course there's lots of improv on this album, but there's so much that is through-composed and thought out, and it was a process of several years. So did you find yourself revising and self-reflecting?
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I revised more technical things. I revised some voicings for the strings that at first I brought and they were like, this is kind of painful to play. You should write something a little bit more doable if you want us to do all these double stops at that speed. Well, and I was like, thank you. I had no idea. It was a lot of that, and maybe it was more like structural stuff, but actually I think the intention I had in terms of the arrangements, it was pretty accurate from the beginning I felt. So there were small technical things, but I didn't revise a lot.
It was definitely the first time I was doing a lot of it. So it took me a long, long time to put all the scores together and then again, work through it and rehearsal for these subtleties. But yeah, I think it took me a while to get the compositions in shape. But something that I feel that happens to me at least so far is that I'm very, very slow to get to the, let's say, finished product of a composition or an arrangement. But once I got there, I'm also pretty sure of what it is, of what I wanted to represent. So I think at some point, maybe it's good to say I'm not revising anymore. I revised a lot of things in the mix in the post-production of the record. But unless something is really calling me, and again, maybe going back to that point of instinct of, well, this just doesn't work, then I think I wouldn't really touch it too much at this point.
Leah Roseman:
And I was wondering if you wanted to reflect on Rogerio, the percussionist, how his contribution or how you guys met or
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, wow, it's huge with him. He's actually one of the first people I met in New York, and it was through his daughter, who's an amazing musician also. And I met her at a jazz workshop in Sienna in Italy right before I moved to New York. I was there the last two weeks of July, 2014, and then I moved to New York straight from there. I had a lot of gear and whatever, and we talked at the end and she said, oh, I also live in New York. I didn't know you were moving there. And we talked about doing a session. So the first session I ever played in New York was with her. And I met some really cool people for that, and I had no idea. Her dad is such an incredible musician, which I think also made it easier for me to meet him because a lot of the times it's actually good to not come with any ideas or preconceptions of who this person is because you just get to meet.
So I met him pretty quickly, and I think in the last years thanks to this new Brazilian love and obsession and this band, we became much, much closer for me when I was thinking of a drummer, let's say drummer, like a rhythm section for this band, I was feeling that textually, it can't be drums, it's too much. And it's something that I was feeling anyway before, even in gigs that I was doing as a leader just with a trio. I was starting to get a little sick of bass in drums because it just sounds so familiar and such a specific thing that you can't get away from the sound of it. So with this band that is so delicate, it doesn't have a bass, it has cello and guitar instead of a bass or just no bass. I wanted someone who is on one hand very groove oriented, which Rugerio is to an amazing extent coming from that Brazilian background and other styles he's played, but that has a really unique textural thing going for him. And his percussion set is like, it's insane sometimes when I see him play, when we're not playing together, I look at how his limbs work and how quickly he changes between different textures and different combinations of things in a very orchestration based way.
This is kind of what I wanted for this project. And I think in every tune there's something very, very different that happens with it, and it creates a lot of space in the music, but he's also really, really good at just giving you that driving pulse and very groove based approach. But then on other songs like Dusk on Landwehr Canal, which is kind of a drum feature under the string parts, textually, there's so much going on there. So yeah, I love working with him.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah,
This is an excerpt from Dusk on Landwehr Canal (Music)
And speaking of color, so David Leon, you have him playing both sax and flute, which works really well.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, he's amazing. Every time I meet him, he picks up another instrument and you don't understand how he even had the time to practice it and be that good at it, but he is. So with flute, it was, I think kind of like eluding also to that very Brazilian style of that tune Chorinho for Tati. So flute, pandero and nylon string guitar that started. It was very kind of idiomatic to that style. And what I love about David, you said color is that I think we share something very, very special and specific about how we see our instruments and our playing, which is, it doesn't matter that it's a guitar, and it doesn't matter that it's a saxophone, like the goal is to blend, and the goal is to find what is the right sound and the right texture for this particular piece and for this particular moment, and for this particular phrase. So to have someone who thinks of the saxophone, not as a lead, but as within the band, which is a lot of how I think of guitar and honestly enjoy playing guitar the most in the middle of things, this is why this band exists. So I could also be in the middle. So he's someone who is able to do that, and he could get the darkest, warmest tone, and he has a crazy dynamic range. He can yell, he can make the sax sound like machine. He could make it sound like a string player. So he's super versatile within that. And it was really nice that every time we rehearsed this music, he was like, okay, what is it? Am I getting it right? Is this the tone you want? I feel like I'm not blending with the cello. And then they would work on that specific thing. So this is the chamber music element that I really like. And all of the people in the band I think are connected to this side. And it's something that sometimes I'm missing a little bit in the jazz universe that attention to how do we phrase together, what is the gesture that we're going for? What is the weight? And I hope we brought it across in this record. That's a goal. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
Now actually, one of the tunes connects to your band KADAWA, how do you pronounce it?
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, KADAWA.
Leah Roseman:
KADAWA.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
So, Sophianic Mess. I know you've played and recorded with KADAWA. It's coming out on your upcoming album with them too, right? But
Tal Yahalom:
Yes, that's true. Yeah, that comes out February 28th and that we recorded it with them. And actually I even recorded it once before on my first solo EP. So it's already, yeah, three different bands, one solo guitar, one guitar trio with bass drums, and now the Quintet.
Leah Roseman:
I actually heard all those versions. Oh,
Tal Yahalom:
Oh, amazing.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, 'cause KADAWA you have it on YouTube. I think it's a live version.
Tal Yahalom:
Mm-hmm.
Leah Roseman:
So I'd heard that, and it's kind of a funny story, the title, right?
Tal Yahalom:
Yes. It's a very funny story. Basically, I was subletting a room in my apartment, and for some reason I couldn't find a friend who would stay there, but I just needed to cover that room for the rent or whatever. And I think it was someone random from Facebook named Sophie who wanted the room. And I was desperate, and I was like, okay, okay, sure, I'll give it to her. The moment she came in the door, I knew I made a mistake already and that this was going to be an awful time to get her, because she brought all of her stuff from her past apartment into a tiny, tiny room, and it was all laying all over. She was super inconsiderate and taking so much space and she was a mess. And I just sat in my room that day and didn't want to engage with her at all. And the tune happened very, very quickly by just sitting there and playing something that was very true to that moment, ended up being very weirdly melancholic in this kind of changing minor tonalities, but then it becomes this brighter thing that still has a lot of playfulness and chaos to it.
So it came out of that. And there is a section there where on the record, the quintet record, it just a picado section of cello and violin. And when I wrote that piece of the tune, I knew that it had to be arranged for strings. And this is the oldest tune in the book. This is like 2018 maybe, something like that. So when I recorded it solo guitar, I was trying to emulate that. When we played with KADAWA we tried to emulate that, and Almog the bassist, did an amazing job to get that color across. But I think the real dream was to have it with a string trio of me violin and cello. And that was the first arrangement that I wrote for the band. I just wrote these string parts and then I was like, okay, I want to do more. So it kind of is the catalyst in a very weird way.
Leah Roseman:
This is a clip from the middle of the version of Sophianic Mess on Mirror Image where you hear some of the pizzicati in the violin and cello lines.(Music)
So it must've been very awkward getting her to move out.
Tal Yahalom:
Luckily, it was not a permanent thing, it was like a month type thing while she was looking for something. But actually don't remember if I lived with her that whole time. I think my roommates at the time were suffering more because I had traveled and they needed to live with her. So they were probably more pissed than I was, honestly.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. So your trio KADAWA, it's like a jazz rock, I don't know what, experimental.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, we also are not sure. Now we're calling it like post rock or Avant rock experimental jazz. Who knows? Who knows?
Leah Roseman:
And you guys met as teenagers, right? It's been a long time project.
Tal Yahalom:
Yes. So with Almog Sharvit was the bass player and Ben Silashi the drummer. We met when we were 18. We met when we started college in Tel Aviv at the Israeli Conservatory of Music. There's an amazing program there called, Shtrikel, which brings a lot of the Israeli musicians to New York, thanks to a collaboration we have with the New School. So we met there all in pursuit of going to New York eventually. And we're from very different places in Israel and different backgrounds. Ben the drummer, is actually the one who went to the famous Arts high school, and he was the one who really played jazz with the right environment or a very good environment before. And me and Almog were more from outskirts. We didn't really have a scene growing up. So I think me and him had a very natural connection when we met at that place.
And we just became friends very, very quickly and started playing each other's original music the first year we met, and we spent so much time together, and when we weren't spending time together, we were talking on the phone or sending each other stuff. It was just an obsession. And we kept working on music nonstop. And there was a previous iteration of that band with a different drummer for a year, and then we were like, no, Ben has to be in it. We have amazing chemistry. And ever since we've been working together, and at the time in Israel, in our first years in New York, we were rehearsing a ton together and we even lived together. That story about Sophie, it was in that apartment where we all lived together. So I lived with Almog for a year. We all lived together for two more years. We toured together a lot in Europe before the pandemic. And it was like my lab, it was for all of us. This was the place we could develop our voices the most and experiment with composition. And we all are very obsessed with arranging and finding the right colors and grooves and transition and having a very strong impact to how the music is being presented. And yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy to be able to play with people who you've known now for, what is it, like 15 years? So it's a beautiful project and I'm really glad we're finally putting out our second album. It's been a lot of hardships with the pandemic kind of dividing us to different parts of the world and doing post-production in that situation. But this one is a real, it's kind of an epic album, honestly. We've put so much effort into overdubs and post-production and making the trio sound massive and very rich in textures. So yeah, it's worth a listen. I'm very, very proud of it.
Leah Roseman:
Do you want to include a clip of any of that in this podcast?
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, we can include one for sure, for sure. Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
You're about to hear Salhov Syndrome, one of Tal's compositions from KADAWA's new album Post Graduation Fees.(Music)
Yeah. Speaking of your youth, so I understand your first guitar lessons were with the school janitor who was like a Metalhead?
Tal Yahalom:
Yes. That was a big part. I actually had other lessons with, this is a cliche, but a Russian born classical guitar player that my parents kind of sent me to. And I was like, I dunno, dunno if it's working for me. But I was in a very interesting school, and I think it also led to a lot of the way I think about things. It's like the concept of it is a democratic school where there are no mandatory lessons. You pick your own curriculum, and the philosophy is that they trust the child to take accountability and know themselves well enough with the close accompaniment and guidance of teachers and mentors there to kind of pick his own path and his own timing. And if you did sign up for lessons, it was completely normal school or university would be accountable for everything. But thanks to this approach, they also had classes that were very unusual. And for example, also the teachers had a lot of interesting interests and hobbies and knowledge outside of the normal math history, whatever. So this guy who worked as a janitor was a metal guitar player, and he had a working band, and he was like, okay, I'm just going to start the guitar class. And he was teaching maybe eight to 10 kids, myself included. And with him, I learned the basic of some chords and Israeli rock songs and things like that. Later I continued to some other teachers in that way, but then also at the same school, the guy who literally, I mean without him, I would be nowhere was the music and also jazz teacher there, his name is Shachal Galina, he's an amazing saxophone player that went to Berklee and came back to Israel. And I took the normal ensembles with him, but at some point he was like, Tal, I think you would really playing jazz. So he was trying to lure me into this universe, and I was convinced, and it was amazing to get into it because he was also introducing me to a lot of things that I didn't know about. And this was at the time where people would actually burn CDs to you. So he gave me a lot of Wayne Shorter to listen to the jazz messengers, but then also a lot of really hip contemporary stuff like Kurt Rosenwinkel that he knew about. And I was like, who is this? What is this music?
And he really directed me towards the right places. He sent me to one of the most formative guitar teachers I've ever had that a lot of guitarists from Israel actually go through him because he has a very strong method of getting to know the neck and improvising. His name is Shai Chen. So Shachal directed me to Shai, and Shachal also directed me to a summer jazz workshop that I went to. And he also directed me to that college in Tel Aviv I mentioned. So thanks to him, I got kind of a peak into the jazz world, and I had a little bit of an environment at least to play every week.
Leah Roseman:
And I understand you used to spend hours transcribing as a teenager as well.
Tal Yahalom:
Oh man, I was obsessed. I still am obsessed with transcribing. I think I'm transcribing very different things these days, but transcribing has always been probably the strongest part of my practice in some ways. And I think I would spend maybe sometimes four or five hours a day as a teenager just in my room, transcribing solos, transcribing compositions. I was a huge Pat Metheny fan at the time, so I would transcribe everything from him and learn compositions, and I could sing note by note by heart. Honestly, I'm really glad I spent the time then because it made it so much easier later to not be afraid to approach any kind of music I want to learn, because I know what it means to sit with a piece and try to figure it out.
And that's something I actually also try to show my students. I teach a bunch too, but the skill I want to give the most is you can figure it out by yourself with these and these tools, but don't be afraid to do it. That's the best way for you to learn. And at some point, I don't want you to depend on me. So I think when you learn how to transcribe, you also have this amazing freedom to just be like, okay, I can engage with it. This can be part of my life and my musicality. And when you do it enough, it becomes a little bit easier.
Leah Roseman:
And it sounds like this unique school you went to allowed for that time too.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. In high school I already kind of had a normal schedule, but definitely before that. And even in the spaces between classes, yes, there was a lot of time to just hang out and do whatever it is you love. And most of it, I think it's the mentality. I don't even think it's the schedule. It's more this idea that you can design your own way of living and you need to trust yourself to do this. And I think always for me, I am, sometimes it's hard for me also, sometimes it's kind of a wait. Sometimes I wish it would be, oh yeah, just go by the schedule and don't feel out everything that you're feeling out. Sometimes it's good to just go with a thing, but I think for me, the priority has always been, what do I want to do with my time now? What does it feel that I want to be doing now, whether it's music or not music. So I think having that kind of education and a system that trusts me to make my own choices and that it's valuable, it was like, okay, then if I want to put music at that priority and I'm still accountable for all the other fields of my life, I can do it.
Leah Roseman:
That's really great.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, I wish more people would go to schools like that. Honestly, I think it's missing compared to the structured at this year, you do this in this class, you do this, and we are all at the same place. We are not. We're just different people.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah. And when you first came to the States, shortly thereafter, you won the Detroit Jazz Festival Guitar Competition. I'm a classical musician, and I don't know what a jazz competition really looks like. I mean, I've talked to a few people who've been in them, but
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I mean, honestly, that experience was very surreal to me, and I can't even imagine that it happened within a year or a year and a half after I moved, I sent the audition kind of on a whim. I just played a session with some friends when I was visiting back in Tel Aviv. And I recorded it with friends that I had a good connection with, sent it. And that competition is very unique because, and I even didn't know this, I think signing up, you immediately reach the final, just three guitarists. So it was just me and two other guitarists, and they flew us in. The format was really interesting because it was two nights back to back. And the first night it was a concert where we each had mini sets, like 15 minutes, maybe three tunes, something like that. And we played with a rhythm section that we met there pretty much in no rehearsal, just kind of reading the charts.
And the second night was more of a jam session setting, which was also super interesting. Every guitarist would play kind of on their own. And then we would also play some tunes together, like all three guitarists with a rhythm section, or two guitarists with a rhythm section. And it was for a full house. It was a show that people came to see in this way, competitions are really weird. I don't know if I would be a judge in a competition, how I would be able to even do that. And what do people really assess in the classical world? I'm sure it's very different in the jazz world. What's interesting is that, first of all, in that context, I played with people I've never met as a rhythm section. So my priority, and I think this is maybe one of the things that's also the judges felt my priority was to make music with them. I wanted to have communication with them and not only, again, be the soloist on top, be in the middle, have this interchange with them, get them excited about playing music. And I think it really, really helped me. But it came through much more in the second night. The first night I was terrified.
I had no idea what I was doing, but I did also play a solo tune. I did two songs with the trio, and then I played, I think it was the Nearness of You, some ballad that I just played solo. And I remember that after the fact when one of the judges who was also the director of the festival, he told me that that solo piece had a big impact on them. But then in the second night where I really opened up, they unanimously felt like I deserved to win that. And it was an unbelievable opportunity because you get a performance slot at the festival. So I brought KADAWA to play that festival. We played our original stuff on one of the main stages there. And luckily enough, which was full circle to me, the Artis in residence for that year was Pat Metheny. So for me, I could not believe that I'm there. And there was even a moment where there was an artist meeting and a cheers just to kind of start the festival. And the director was introducing me. He was like, here's Tal the winner of this Guitar Competition, and everyone is applauding. And I got to talk with some really great musicians. But there was a moment where we also had to go to the back to sign a poster of the festival, and I signed the poster and like a ghost from another universe, Pat Metheny comes from a corridor and congratulates me. And we're talking a little bit, and I was shocked that I'm even in the presence of this person. So we just talked a little bit, and he was amazing because he straightaway said something very meaningful, not to me, but something about the music. He was like, man, your guys' job is to play for your generation. Don't play for the suits. Don't play for this and this play for your people. He just told me this sentence basically, and went away. But I was like, okay. That's huge.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, that is great.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah.
Leah Roseman:
And just, you mentioned your solo playing. I really have enjoyed listening to your solo album.
Tal Yahalom:
Thank you. Thank you very much. The Standards album.
Leah Roseman:
The Standards album. Yeah,
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I love playing solo. I feel like it's also, it's just the setting that I'm at most when I practice. That's what it is. And the pandemic accentuated that for everyone, I think. And that record was a direct result of the first, I dunno, six months of the pandemic. I was just obsessed with finding these new ways of playing solo, and again, textural exploration or how I could play solo in a way that the guitar represents more than one part or more than one role. And it was a really hard process to put these arrangements together. But obviously I had a lot of time and I recorded them with an amazing friend and engineer in Tel Aviv Yair Taragano, and we worked very close together. It all happened in two weeks. We did three, four sessions.
And I think it kind of set the foundation of a lot of things that I do now. Just that period of exploration. And really the concept for me was to take a standard and for each standard to be kind of a platform for a different space of solo playing. That's why the opening track, My Romance is all played with harmonics, like artificial and natural harmonics. And I just played a head. I just played the melody with a little bit of accompaniment, and that's what it is. I didn't feel like it needs anything else. And other things are more pianistic. There's some stride tunes there, but not for me. Honeysuckle Rose is more of, I dunno, gypsy jazz combined with a backbeat type of thing. So I'm very proud of it. It's definitely, it was a stretch to record those at the time. It was very hard. But I think going through that process gave me more access to be like, okay, now I can really focus on each of those and develop them more.
Leah Roseman:
And I know you perform a lot with singers. You have a new duo with Danielle Wertz.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah. Yeah. I love playing with singers. I also love playing duo. I think the more exposed and the more intimate it is, the more your decisions matter and you can feel the energy of maybe just one person. I think sometimes I can be very sensitive to the energy of everyone around me. So for example, when I'm playing a one-off gig with a quartet, there are just way more people to be sensitive to and kind of a common ground and a common energy at that moment. And duos make it a little bit easier. It's harder in the technical sense, you need to cover more ground maybe, but on the personal level and the connection you can have, I love it. And especially with vocalists, because I think when there is a song involved, it can be jazz, it can be original, whatever.
You kind of forget about some of the bullshit you would be dealing with when you're playing just an instrumental piece, you forget about all the things you can do and you're just doing what the song needs. At least for me, that's the space it puts me in. And with Danielle, it's been a really special process because we co-wrote or co-arranged all of this music for this new project, and we just have a very, very close friendship. We would meet a lot to rehearse and refine lyrics, but those rehearsals were half just talking about every aspect of our lives and very deep emotional stuff.
I said it at the show, I feel like what we have in common is the emotional landscape and the way we process things. And it's something that we wanted to bring across in the music too. And it's a very new thing. And now we applied for a residency to write some more music together, but we definitely know that we want to record something. And I think the message in our music is important these days of being more vulnerable and honest with the things that you are going through, even if it's super hard. And right now the world is super hard in many, many ways. So I think for us it was a space of really owning what we're feeling and giving a space for other people to have that, even though it's really difficult things. And also for this project, it was kind of the first time I wrote lyrics, so it was a different confrontation in that way. I also sing there, so it's very new ground, but I'm enjoying it. We'll see where it goes.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, I look forward to listening to it.
Tal Yahalom:
Thank you. Thank you.
Leah Roseman:
In terms of your arranging chops, have you arranged for larger ensembles, like big bands or orchestra, or is that something you want to do?
Tal Yahalom:
Haven't I'm terrified by that idea. I dunno how anyone ever has the patience to put together a big band chart. It seems like the most intimidating thing in the world to me. I think I'm organized and disciplined enough to do it at some point. I would say the closer one that really appeals to me is the string quartet.
If anything, that's something that I would really like to hone in and learn. And I think just even thinking about a show or an album where just guitar and string court that I get very, very excited about that. So maybe at some point, but my arranging chops are, I did take some orchestration classes at the New School and stuff like that. But I have to say, I feel like a complete noob when it comes to arranging. I feel like I am going much more with my instinct of what, and of course harmonic understanding and all these things, but a lot more with my instinct of what the quality of the sound and the piece is compared to something that is more educated or taught even every time. Again, I need to search what are the range limits for every instrument. It's not something I have memorized. A lot of the times I would make mistakes in the octave placement, for example, with the alto sax. I would think it's higher than it is or lower than it is because of the transposition. So I feel like it's in a way raw and it's something that I could definitely go deeper into, especially if I want to do larger ensemble stuff. But I also think it's just good to go for it and learn as you do it. I would definitely not call myself an arranger for the purpose of other people's music. It's something that is maybe just beginning to happen. I did produce one record for a vocalist and harpist Margo Sargent, where I did write the arrangements, but it was more for a jazz trio and a little extension. It wasn't for something so massive. Yeah. So I would say my arranging comes more from my playing and my compositional thinking more than anything else. More than an educational technical knowledge of how to spread voices and this and this and this.
Leah Roseman:
Okay. Well, it might be interesting to wrap this up with some reflections upon your life as an educator because you had a pretty interesting path as a student, and I'm sure you respect your students' individuality and maybe approach things differently.
Tal Yahalom:
Yeah, thanks for saying that. It is kind of how I see it, and it takes a lot of work, honestly. But I think it's worth it. And I think that I never really believed in one way fits all type of thing. So when students come to me, I mostly have adult students at this point that are kind of intermediate to advanced, but with many different stylistic preferences and different backgrounds, formal, not formal, self-taught, whatever. I ask all my students, for example, to prepare a playlist for me. The first thing when they come to my lessons of things that they have played, things that they are enjoying listening to right now, things that are in their fantasy to be able to learn. And I listen through that to get a little bit of the world. And then what I try to do is I try to fit things that I know should be at the core of their learning, but through different lenses, through different songs, different material.
So that's definitely one thing that I try to do. And I talk about it with a lot of other colleagues who are teachers that I really feel like teaching is half therapy. It is completely that you have to understand what's the angle, how can you reach that person? And more than anything, and this is a moment that I had that really clicked for me, what are the limiting beliefs that people have on themselves? I think this is the thing you confront the most when you're teaching. Some person would come to you and I'm like, I could never memorize anything. I have bad memory. And I'm like, okay, but what if we think about it this way? There are actually ways you can work on this. Not you have bad memory, you just don't have access to it. Or even things like, I'm a bad student at the basics of it.
I don't have discipline. Well, maybe you don't have discipline for these and these things because you just don't enjoy them, so maybe don't do them. I really try to show people that you need to focus on the things that are important for what you want to achieve. You don't need to check all the boxes all the time. I think it's something a little bit, I would say, toxic in jazz education in some way, or even classical, I dunno, that side. But they tell you, you have to know all of these tunes and you have to learn how to transpose all of these things. And you build this impossible set of skills that you're supposed to have at all times. And then you're just pursuing these check marks instead of going with your curiosity. And I really don't think it's a healthy approach to developing musicians. So I try to get away from that.
Leah Roseman:
Yeah, really insightful.
Tal Yahalom:
Thank you. Yeah,
Leah Roseman:
So thanks so much for this today. I really appreciated it.
Tal Yahalom:
Hey, thank you. It was super fun, really awesome questions, and thank you for looking into all of the music and listening for stuff. That's great.
Leah Roseman:
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please share this with your friends and check out episodes you may have missed at Leahroseman.com. If you could buy me a coffee to support this series, that would be wonderful. I'm an independent podcaster and I really do need the help of my listeners. All the links are in the show notes. The podcast theme music was written by Nick Kold. Have a wonderful week.
